Help gross misconduct accidental theft:(

[welshmum32]

Hes tried just explaining last week before he got suspension letter so was pretyped before speaking to him.

 

hes been reading acas.

 

it seems the chat was week just him and his line manager/area manager was part of formal investigation and wlll be used next week.

 

But he had no witness and no one took notes is this bad procedure?

 

It wasent until he answered the questions that he realised he was being formally investigated.

 

hes was so upset last week he dident want to talk about it.

 

now im asking him what was said by whom and in what order.

 

really wish had been documented now.

 

The problem is somone in store one of his employees has abused his discount card without his knowldge.

 

This also classed as gross misconduct.

 

Someone in store also reported him.

 

is this the same person does disgrunted empployee have it in for him?

 

He will mention it but will make him look negligant as he dident realised this had gone on his store under his watch,.

 

theres strict rules on staff discountb which hes been careful to adehere to.

 

hes not being displined for theft.

 

hes being displined for deception!

 

up until last week he was one of best mangers in company his area manaher loved him, regional irector hes turned a problem store around brought down stockloss but he has ipset a few employees whilst doing that as was poor culture on comliance within his store in the past.

He was brought in new fresh face new to company to trouble shoot.

 

its everyone thinking hes atheif the stress relly taken his toll on him and us a family.

hes being paid but if he loses his job means bad times for us as could take him months to get another job at same level espially with dismissed for theft on his records.

 

he dopes not know the manger who doing the hearing ihes off another area and hes worried he will look at col hard facts yes they been taken, not paid for , had 2 chances and hes admitted it and they have evience to coroberarte thats the case.

 

Im guessing the hr manager be there too or another manager as I always done dispiinaries in pairs when I was an employer.

 

hes going to plead his case

 

good history

no record of drime

sorry

accident

procedural errors

tired due to working excessive hours and bt stressed whch he has been,

 

other than that not sure.

 

How has he committed deception? I cant see it myself.

[Emmzzi]

You seem to be looking for a magic answer.

 

There isn't one. Tell him to go and tell the truth; that's all he can do.

[Grotesque]

The deception might be that, he could, theoretically, have planned it: destroyed a pair of cheap trews for the purposes of obtaining a new pair. Phenomenally unlikely, perhaps, but the paranoia of senior management is well documented.

 

That''s ALL good mitigation.

 

An investigation is only an investigation; no legal requirement for a 'rep.' and even if accompanied, the compadre has no interventional rights.

 

There will be a manager (and impartiality is a requirement, so it is good it is someone who will look at cold hard facts rather than personalities on the shop-floor), and s/he will be accompanied by HR, generally; your feller needs union rep / knowledgeable companion there two.

 

Has he made a formal allegation about the discount card abuse?

 

APOLOGIES for answering and asking questions at the same time, was working backwards up your post!

[smokejumper]

Thats what I'm trying to tell you.

 

The discount card is not an issue at the moment, the deception is, I second what Em said.

You seem to be looking for a magic answer.

 

There isn't one. Tell him to go and tell the truth; that's all he can do.

[welshmum32]

I know he has to go and tel it like it is which he will do.

 

I know theres no magic answer.

 

no hes nor reported staff discount abuse as only discovered it today as cae through with disiplnary letter.

 

Most definatly not planned he was wearing expensive par suit bottoms from m&s

 

he told lady who go trousers just pick cheapest pair half decent ones in my size and i will pay for it later.

 

The manager who intereveiwed him he got on well will.

 

he did adjourn and we guess spoke to the lone hr manger in the company via phone.

 

then gave out disiplinary letter and escorted him away.

 

Hes gutted last week hes still in shock.

 

I just want hi to go there next week prepared but most definatly alone.

 

hes so embaressed by it all.

 

I know the staff isount diffrent issue,

 

but an investigation should be far and accurate and his purchase hisstory is innacuare,

 

also got hoi thinking who has it in for him instore made him feel bit paranoid and alone over simple mistake

 

So when should he bring up staff discount? next week or before so they can investigate further?

 

 

Just feel so powerless an wanted to help in him some way.

.

will have to wait until tuesday and update you guys then.

 

I guess 3things happen.

 

he can return to work.

 

they adjourn pending further investigations

 

or the dismiss him.

 

its the not knowing thats hard.

 

sorry if im confusing or repeating myself.

 

do value any advice on matter and virtual support.

[Emmzzi]

I'd raise the inaccuracies at the investigatory meeting and expect an adjournment for further investigation. While he is is suspended he is getting paid, so that's something.

 

A meeting further away is a bonus as he'll know less people than locally?

 

Just keep telling him you believe in him.

[Grotesque]

It's absolutely FUNDAMENTAL that he exercises his statutory right and goes in accompanied; remember the hearing manager will be accompanied- i.e. have a witness- and so must he, if only so that 'fair play' can be seen to be done.

 

BTW, I was under the impression that the investigatory stage was now over (e.g. post #26) and that this meeting 'up north' was part of the formal disciplinary process?

[welshmum32]

yes it is next week is dispilary so no more investigatation.

 

These facts came to light today not at meeting last week where he was too shell shocked to think straight.

 

so should he ring up profit priotection tommorow in advance of hearing?

 

yes hes being paid until next week anyway.

 

he knows i belive him and thik brought us closer together.

 

in past when we both did investigations in other companies we always had notetaker

 

he only thourght baout it toay when rlooking at acas webste.

would joing aunion now be too late, any help or make things owrse.

 

he cant think ayone he wants with him.

 

so next week could be adjourned based on inncaurate purchase hispry and unprofessional banter encloses wth innacurate report?

 

its allengation of deception.

so other than tellin the truth which hes done.

 

how does he disprovve the allengation?

 

does deception have a specfic criteria? does the facts of is case meet that?

As we already think its not theft as intent was not there.

 

disception seems so vaugue.

[Emmzzi]

joining a union now would probably be too late; it's like an insurance policy, you cant buy it after you have been burgled.

 

if he has any friends who are reps anywhere, however, they can go with

 

I would flag the purchase history now, yes

[Emmzzi]

ps the banter is irrelevant as is your lack of caravan ownership

[welshmum32]

Lol emmizzi made me chuckle.

 

just felt banter uprofessional.

 

caravan made me chuckle hubbsy least caravan loving type ever.

 

will get hin to rg profot protection tommorow? or hr? or regional?

 

I knew union couldent go in there but wondered if they could offer advice.

 

i cant think anyone who could go with him. he has few freinds as such within the company.

 

his 1 freind ot been in touch and think hes too worried to phone him.

 

Apologies if sound like complete fruitcake just been very stressful tme.Just as such massive repurcussions for family fnances and his career.

 

just feel very sad its come to this.

 

thanks for all your advice.

 

hoping behind scenes theres not actually employee in store who has it in for him.

[Emmzzi]

ring whoever you feel is best; I'd call whoever sent the documents.

[welshmum32]

Ok in this case it be profit protection.

 

should he ask someone sen him handbook?

 

also found this on acas

 

 

 

The purpose of an investigation is to look into potential disciplinary matters to establish the facts of the case.

The employee is not entitled to see copies of all allegations during an investigation. However, where the matter escalates to a disciplinary hearing it is good practice that the employee be given sufficient information about the alleged misconduct or poor performance to enable them to prepare to answer the case and defend themselves at the disciplinary meeting. Employers would therefore usually send copies of any documentary evidence they are relying on (e.g. witness statements, emails, transcripts etc) to the employee at the same time as the letter informing them of the time and date of the hearing.

 

For more information on this subject or to discuss a situation specific to your workplace please contact the Acas Helpline.

 

 

other than the list of purchases hes seen no witness statements.

 

does not know who was questioned.

should he know all this stuff prior the hearing?

 

Is it worth him ring acas helpline?

[Emmzzi]

Look.

 

He knows he took the trousers.

 

He knows he forgot to pay.

 

What good is seeing statements going to do?

 

You are just picking over the bones now. Go have more tea!!!

[welshmum32]

ok i know

 

just feel so worried,

 

havent had tea cant face eating.

 

trying to keep myself distracted and fubd useful stuff that make us both feel bit less glum.

 

im trying to be positve

 

might get early nite as have another5days of worry before hearing.

 

I just wondered by deception maybe something said in statemnets something false or malicious.

 

yes im clutching at straws because i dont wish him to lose his job /career over innocent mistake.

 

aplogies if been annoying.

[Emmzzi]

vent all you like, you need a safe ear

 

but try and get some kip, yes

[welshmum32]

Ok its gets more odd.

 

today was disiplinary day.

 

area manager of diffrent region and hr woman taking notes.

 

the supsension and dispiplinary was for deception to take goods.

 

Hubby spoke truth admitted he was sorry there as no deception just huge error of judgemnt.

 

When he said he looked at till to look up price-they said that was breech of policy that he should ahve done it on computer he dident realise that.

 

They adjourned and consulted lawyer and came back with re suspension pending further investigation for breech of company policy.

 

So im thinking they did not feel comfortble dismissing on grouds of theft as intenet not their or deception as not enough eveidence.

 

They dident seem to care about personal banter about boss killing me if dont get work done.

or fact purchase history was innacurate they said its noted but irrelevent.

 

but glad he noted it.

 

It appears profit protection have done an audit on his store since he left and found something else to have him for.

 

He thinks its the fact he checked price of trousers flag programe not someone reported him which suppose is good as he has mostly good working relationship with his store team and had very good working relationship with his boss and company director,

 

They said they write to him and he thinks the new allegation is breech of company policy in relation to stock management now!

 

Bsically in last 2 companies hes worked for they have corrected inevntry in store.

 

so he counts daily to check stock levels are correct as that can delay new stock coming in , affecet availiability and annoy customers who rsereve and collect last item then come in and get annoyed as the 1 item they thourght was in stock and rserved is not. Approx over a year ago he emailed profit protection and asked them to make some stock adjustments and they emailed back said do it in store through the tilll which hes done for past year on regular basis!

 

This is infact breech of policy in company handbook. They not saying hes flasifying stock levels and pocketing stock himself. They saying he breeched company policy in teh way he did it and classing it as stock manipulation which think aslo gross misconduct.

 

I asked if he had email he said was over year ago so deleted.someoe gave innacurate advice which he took.

The emailw as from profit protection who now doinga udit and trying to get hism dismissed over this,

 

I said he needs to get hodl of ahndbook we dont have one at home and hes not allowed in store or to speak to anyone still.His old supervisor did off record rang ask him how he was says staff think someone has died thats why hes off,.

 

He only had 2 weeks training in another store where store manager hatdly spent any time with hier.

 

dont think he had any offfical training documents signed off before he landed in his stotre and was expected hit the ground running.

 

He did sign contract which said he read and undestood terms in compay handbook.

 

He probably did have reasonably good read of some bits of it in reality who rememebsr every detail you look at specific obvious things.

 

Hes vastly mproved stock loss, customer service and avaialibility /standards since hes been there.

 

He was rising star now this.

 

It seems so vindictive now like they have it in for him.

 

Beacuse he started before april 6th he can appeal.

 

should he start a greviance against profit protection for unprofessional insesnitive behaviour, inacurate douments and inaccurate advie on policy?

 

what next steps now?

 

guess we have to wait for letter

 

maybe ring acas again.

 

I did say before he went if they cant prove deception they wont be able to dismiss on other grouds they would have to find another reason. Which they did.

 

Im glad hes not sacked hes still on pay but its the not knowing.

 

lying to family and freinds.

 

dont know how long this goes on?

 

hes very stressed about it all?

 

is it worth him going sick?hes not in the best state im trying be postive.

 

wondering if we need to consult an employment lawyer.,

 

wish we had that flipping email. but cant access in store, he used outlook i think does that get stored on cloud anywhere?

 

if e tell head office then they could arase any evidence there end that email was sent.

 

Hes applied for few other jobs not much out there but hes in the world he wants to leave.

 

but he needs to be sacked to get jsa?

but not sure how that look on cv.

 

so bit stuck really.

[Emmzzi]

area manager of diffrent region and hr woman taking notes. - normal

 

the supsension and dispiplinary was for deception to take goods. - you knew this already

 

Hubby spoke truth admitted he was sorry there as no deception just huge error of judgemnt.

 

When he said he looked at till to look up price-they said that was breech of policy that he should ahve done it on computer he dident realise that.

 

They adjourned and consulted lawyer and came back with re suspension pending further investigation for breech of company policy. - ok. can they show he was trained or should have known about this policy?

So im thinking they did not feel comfortble dismissing on grouds of theft as intenet not their or deception as not enough eveidence. - that's a plus as it gets the GMC out of the way!

They dident seem to care about personal banter about boss killing me if dont get work done. - well I did tell you to not bring it up as it didn't matter

or fact purchase history was innacurate they said its noted but irrelevent. - I'd disagree with that and suggest it needs investigating too

 

but glad he noted it.

 

It appears profit protection have done an audit on his store since he left and found something else to have him for. - have found something else to investigate. you really must stop having him sacked and out the door before investigations are complete.

He thinks its the fact he checked price of trousers flag programe not someone reported him which suppose is good as he has mostly good working relationship with his store team and had very good working relationship with his boss and company director,

 

They said they write to him and he thinks the new allegation is breech of company policy in relation to stock management now!

 

Bsically in last 2 companies hes worked for they have corrected inevntry in store.

 

so he counts daily to check stock levels are correct as that can delay new stock coming in , affecet availiability and annoy customers who rsereve and collect last item then come in and get annoyed as the 1 item they thourght was in stock and rserved is not. Approx over a year ago he emailed profit protection and asked them to make some stock adjustments and they emailed back said do it in store through the tilll which hes done for past year on regular basis! - it is unfortunate he does not have the email. Again what training can they show he had?

This is infact breech of policy in company handbook. They not saying hes flasifying stock levels and pocketing stock himself. - good They saying he breeched company policy in teh way he did it and classing it as stock manipulation which think aslo gross misconduct. - really? what benefit did he get from that personally then? did it make the store look better?

I asked if he had email he said was over year ago so deleted.someoe gave innacurate advice which he took.

The emailw as from profit protection who now doinga udit and trying to get hism dismissed over this,

 

I said he needs to get hodl of ahndbook we dont have one at home and hes not allowed in store or to speak to anyone still.His old supervisor did off record rang ask him how he was says staff think someone has died thats why hes off,. He should write to HR and ask for a copy of the handbook and also for them to confirm when he was issued with a copy

He only had 2 weeks training in another store where store manager hatdly spent any time with hier.

 

dont think he had any offfical training documents signed off before he landed in his stotre and was expected hit the ground running. - helpful to his case

 

He did sign contract which said he read and undestood terms in compay handbook. - um. oops.

 

He probably did have reasonably good read of some bits of it in reality who rememebsr every detail you look at specific obvious things. - not an argument to use at all. "I think everyone reads carelessly" will not help.

Hes vastly mproved stock loss, customer service and avaialibility /standards since hes been there. - good!

 

He was rising star now this.

 

It seems so vindictive now like they have it in for him. - in your head, yes. the reality may be very different. they do need to investugate irregularities and it is not a mark of a vendetta!! Calm down for pete's sake.

Beacuse he started before april 6th he can appeal.

 

should he start a greviance against profit protection for unprofessional insesnitive behaviour, inacurate douments and inaccurate advie on policy? - no, that's going to look very childish. He should maintain a calm professionalism.

what next steps now? - sit tight while they investigate. drink tea.

 

guess we have to wait for letter

 

maybe ring acas again. - I find their advice patchy at best.

 

I did say before he went if they cant prove deception they wont be able to dismiss on other grouds they would have to find another reason. Which they did.

 

Im glad hes not sacked hes still on pay but its the not knowing.

 

lying to family and freinds. - why do you have to lie? Just don't say anything!

 

dont know how long this goes on? - possibly for months

 

hes very stressed about it all?

 

is it worth him going sick?hes not in the best state im trying be postive. - what does he gain by going sick if he is getting paid anyway? nothing. If he is ill he should however see his doctor. But I'd try and keep a clean sick record.

wondering if we need to consult an employment lawyer., - why? they are simply investigating. the lawyer has no info to help at this stage.

wish we had that flipping email. but cant access in store, he used outlook i think does that get stored on cloud anywhere? - ask if he can do an accompanied search of his emails to find the record.

if e tell head office then they could arase any evidence there end that email was sent. - conspiracy theories abound, I see.

Hes applied for few other jobs not much out there but hes in the world he wants to leave.

 

but he needs to be sacked to get jsa?

but not sure how that look on cv.

 

so bit stuck really.

 

My answers underlined. One again you are making a normal investigation into a catastrophe. This won't help anyone.

 

If it were me investigating and he had no financial gain from his actions I'd find out how the breach occurred and retrain, end of. Of course if he starts throwing grievances, sick leave and other paid employment into the mix that'd be different - then I WOULD be looking to replace him for a quiet life!

[Grotesque]

Pretty solid assessment tbh.*

 

 

*perhaps with the exception of advising drinking tea... maybe a large single malt would help

[welshmum32]

Thanks for advce sorry if seem like paranoid loon.

 

 

Just his disiplinary as 2.5hours long/

 

looks like not enough evidence to prove theft as no intent and they dont feel secure dismissing for deception.

 

We have no written letter for the new suspension should supsenson always be in writing?

 

The manager said it would be in the post.

 

he hinted at they would be going for him under stock manipulation- a act of gross misdconduct leding to dismissial.

 

They had very little eveidence with regards to trousers.

 

just husbands immediate admissioin

 

cctv footage him wearing the trousers.

 

they took witness statemnets but hes not seen ny

 

the list of pucrhases from profit protection -trousers not on it but other radndom expensive purchases hes made are and they dont seem overly worried just said its noted.

 

he now knows he should have checked staff dicount price through computer not till as thats policy-again training need.

 

This new thing they want him for.

 

yes hes admitted it as he did not realise he was dong anything wrong.

 

its abreech of policy in procedures - no grand plan to manipulate stock just him doing what he thourght was part of his job.Its a training need and hes not been officilly trained as nothing signed off.

 

I would of anticipiated suspension letter to say breech of company poliicy not the super inflated allegation of stock manipulation which by its very desription sounds devious, dishonest and premeditated.

 

Easy to say outside looking in.

 

But its been horrible time for all of us.

 

as usual I will try remain postive, kleep busy lkeep his mind of things just seems really crappy we now still in limbo over completlly unrelated thing. I ould understand if profit protection did audit due to bad stock loss and their was breech of policies all over the shop but riht now only hubby whos beingt dragged over the coals.

 

we ancipiate another dispiplinary next week perhaps even further away with another area manager .

 

They have company conferance early next week so wont be after then as have no letter of suspension of letter inviting to disiplinary as has to be 48hours notice.

 

So fact hes signed contract agreeing to every detail in handbook.

But nothad any documented training or been offically siigned off will that cancel out not reading handbook properly?

im not even sure he had his own copy , its not accesible online , theirs copies in stoire.

 

he only had 2 week training period.

[Emmzzi]

So that's going to be a swift lesson in reading things properly before you sign, I am afraid.

[transient]

To the OP can you not rehash info and keep stating the same things, the more you say something it doesn;t make any difference and disengages IMHO people from reading.

 

Emmzzi has hit the nail on the head here with the advice and if he did get that email then at the next meeting state he received that and that is why he followed that process. They will be able to retrieve the email no problems

[smokejumper]

How is this going, any update

[welshmum32]

Ok feel need to update.

 

hes got handbook and does not mention procedures for adjustig stock or checking up staff discount price.

 

he had letter wed for driday.

ie today

 

hes invited tp meeting of outcome re the flipping trousers.

no new eveidence will be presented

nothing was included in the letter.

So he thourght it would be pretty quick.

 

its was 2.5hour drive.

same area manager as last time and a store manager

 

the letter he got said they still investigating the stock thing separate.

 

last dsiplinary resuspended but pending further investigation, but no investigation was made during this time.

 

hes got there today and been questioned for 2hours again about the trousers

 

all stuff hes gone over in initail investogation and last dsiiplinary.

 

i keep thinking if they had grounds to dsimiss theyw ould have 2 weeks ago saved themselves the wages.

 

nothings changed in last 2weeks

they presented no new eveidence.

we presented no new evidence.

 

husband was unprepared for interrogation today.

 

hes either getting dismissed.

go back-not likly.

maybe cleared on trousers but resuspended for stock thing which we not prepared for as have no detail on ths offence.

 

rang union see if could join over stock not trousers? no as already started investigating stock think.

 

hes been off a month now

he has right of appeal

he keeps checking website see if they advertising his job.they not.

hes meant to be weeks holiday on rota next week.

he has a job interveiw which cheered him up.

 

hes just trying to get enough tie to find something else and leave.

 

as even if he goes back his careers dead over this and he has some reservations over the companies conduct throughout.

 

The email not even bought up today as they just discussing trousers today.

 

hees been investogated for 2 separate things.

[welshmum32]

Husbands just rang.

 

They have dismissed him over the trousers-gross misconduct-deception take company property.

I felt sure if he was going to be dimssed over this would have been 2 weeks ago.

 

feel a bit sick.

 

hes mentioned to them he wil appeal?

 

what now other than sign on.

 

go cab?

get 30mins free with empployement lawyer

ring acas?

 

guess all of the above.

 

how easy, qucik and successful is appeals process?

was no of innacuracies and time delay throughout whole process.