Thanks emmizzi. Agency shifts are low paid but yes they said in future give the a call but not guarnteed he get work every day. Yesterday truly was friday 13th get sack go see his mum whos rushed to hospital in abulance he dident get home until 1am this mornng. Nothing we can do this weekend. Hes gone libary to prepare to job interveiw which is what hes trying to focus on. he searches jobs daily. hes confused about appeal. does he need to be there? does he need to take lawyer? techically was straghtfowrd accidental theft how it become deception to take company property. he check price with intention to pay not deceive. yes he dident check up price right way but thats due lack of training. why would a senior manager dong really well golden boy risk everything for cheap pair of 8quid trousers as the girl who got the trousers from him knew. none of it makes sense. hes admitted straightaway offered to pay twice hes never knowingly deceived anyone. all they have is his admission. inncaurate purchase history list cctv footage was pretty cut and dry There reaslly wasent much to investigate. just felt sure if they had grounds 2weeks ago would have dimsissed then. queries i have was at dispilinary should they have given him suspension letter that day? not days later? at 2nd disiplinary of outcome were they said in letter no new evidence/investigation then questioned him for another hour half. hubby said same questons as before maybe slightly diffrently phrased like hes trouser theif of century. Another thourght had today, evening he worked and trousers split. he worked until 9 he then opened up 7 next day breaking working time directive. stress and long hours be mitigating circumstances. im guessing company followed time frames but parts of their investigation been unprofessional and sloppy. incorrect dates incorrect purchase list stuff hes not brought still not been looked at . what happends if appeal gets rejected? do acas do arbitration? just feel at appeal we still at mercy of company thats behaved odd and unprofessional so far.

wht grounds is he to appeal on? how does he appeal? hes told them he wishes to appeal. hes job interveiw tue although unsure what do do about refernces. hes not sure i much agency work out there for him. he needs sign on and guess and we need to claim benefits short term.

Husbands just rang. They have dismissed him over the trousers-gross misconduct-deception take company property. I felt sure if he was going to be dimssed over this would have been 2 weeks ago. feel a bit sick. hes mentioned to them he wil appeal? what now other than sign on. go cab? get 30mins free with empployement lawyer ring acas? guess all of the above. how easy, qucik and successful is appeals process? was no of innacuracies and time delay throughout whole process.

Ok feel need to update. hes got handbook and does not mention procedures for adjustig stock or checking up staff discount price. he had letter wed for driday. ie today hes invited tp meeting of outcome re the flipping trousers. no new eveidence will be presented nothing was included in the letter. So he thourght it would be pretty quick. its was 2.5hour drive. same area manager as last time and a store manager the letter he got said they still investigating the stock thing separate. last dsiplinary resuspended but pending further investigation, but no investigation was made during this time. hes got there today and been questioned for 2hours again about the trousers all stuff hes gone over in initail investogation and last dsiiplinary. i keep thinking if they had grounds to dsimiss theyw ould have 2 weeks ago saved themselves the wages. nothings changed in last 2weeks they presented no new eveidence. we presented no new evidence. husband was unprepared for interrogation today. hes either getting dismissed. go back-not likly. maybe cleared on trousers but resuspended for stock thing which we not prepared for as have no detail on ths offence. rang union see if could join over stock not trousers? no as already started investigating stock think. hes been off a month now he has right of appeal he keeps checking website see if they advertising his job.they not. hes meant to be weeks holiday on rota next week. he has a job interveiw which cheered him up. hes just trying to get enough tie to find something else and leave. as even if he goes back his careers dead over this and he has some reservations over the companies conduct throughout. The email not even bought up today as they just discussing trousers today. hees been investogated for 2 separate things.

Thanks for advce sorry if seem like paranoid loon. Just his disiplinary as 2.5hours long/ looks like not enough evidence to prove theft as no intent and they dont feel secure dismissing for deception. We have no written letter for the new suspension should supsenson always be in writing? The manager said it would be in the post. he hinted at they would be going for him under stock manipulation- a act of gross misdconduct leding to dismissial. They had very little eveidence with regards to trousers. just husbands immediate admissioin cctv footage him wearing the trousers. they took witness statemnets but hes not seen ny the list of pucrhases from profit protection -trousers not on it but other radndom expensive purchases hes made are and they dont seem overly worried just said its noted. he now knows he should have checked staff dicount price through computer not till as thats policy-again training need. This new thing they want him for. yes hes admitted it as he did not realise he was dong anything wrong. its abreech of policy in procedures - no grand plan to manipulate stock just him doing what he thourght was part of his job.Its a training need and hes not been officilly trained as nothing signed off. I would of anticipiated suspension letter to say breech of company poliicy not the super inflated allegation of stock manipulation which by its very desription sounds devious, dishonest and premeditated. Easy to say outside looking in. But its been horrible time for all of us. as usual I will try remain postive, kleep busy lkeep his mind of things just seems really crappy we now still in limbo over completlly unrelated thing. I ould understand if profit protection did audit due to bad stock loss and their was breech of policies all over the shop but riht now only hubby whos beingt dragged over the coals. we ancipiate another dispiplinary next week perhaps even further away with another area manager . They have company conferance early next week so wont be after then as have no letter of suspension of letter inviting to disiplinary as has to be 48hours notice. So fact hes signed contract agreeing to every detail in handbook. But nothad any documented training or been offically siigned off will that cancel out not reading handbook properly? im not even sure he had his own copy , its not accesible online , theirs copies in stoire. he only had 2 week training period.

Ok its gets more odd. today was disiplinary day. area manager of diffrent region and hr woman taking notes. the supsension and dispiplinary was for deception to take goods. Hubby spoke truth admitted he was sorry there as no deception just huge error of judgemnt. When he said he looked at till to look up price-they said that was breech of policy that he should ahve done it on computer he dident realise that. They adjourned and consulted lawyer and came back with re suspension pending further investigation for breech of company policy. So im thinking they did not feel comfortble dismissing on grouds of theft as intenet not their or deception as not enough eveidence. They dident seem to care about personal banter about boss killing me if dont get work done. or fact purchase history was innacurate they said its noted but irrelevent. but glad he noted it. It appears profit protection have done an audit on his store since he left and found something else to have him for. He thinks its the fact he checked price of trousers flag programe not someone reported him which suppose is good as he has mostly good working relationship with his store team and had very good working relationship with his boss and company director, They said they write to him and he thinks the new allegation is breech of company policy in relation to stock management now! Bsically in last 2 companies hes worked for they have corrected inevntry in store. so he counts daily to check stock levels are correct as that can delay new stock coming in , affecet availiability and annoy customers who rsereve and collect last item then come in and get annoyed as the 1 item they thourght was in stock and rserved is not. Approx over a year ago he emailed profit protection and asked them to make some stock adjustments and they emailed back said do it in store through the tilll which hes done for past year on regular basis! This is infact breech of policy in company handbook. They not saying hes flasifying stock levels and pocketing stock himself. They saying he breeched company policy in teh way he did it and classing it as stock manipulation which think aslo gross misconduct. I asked if he had email he said was over year ago so deleted.someoe gave innacurate advice which he took. The emailw as from profit protection who now doinga udit and trying to get hism dismissed over this, I said he needs to get hodl of ahndbook we dont have one at home and hes not allowed in store or to speak to anyone still.His old supervisor did off record rang ask him how he was says staff think someone has died thats why hes off,. He only had 2 weeks training in another store where store manager hatdly spent any time with hier. dont think he had any offfical training documents signed off before he landed in his stotre and was expected hit the ground running. He did sign contract which said he read and undestood terms in compay handbook. He probably did have reasonably good read of some bits of it in reality who rememebsr every detail you look at specific obvious things. Hes vastly mproved stock loss, customer service and avaialibility /standards since hes been there. He was rising star now this. It seems so vindictive now like they have it in for him. Beacuse he started before april 6th he can appeal. should he start a greviance against profit protection for unprofessional insesnitive behaviour, inacurate douments and inaccurate advie on policy? what next steps now? guess we have to wait for letter maybe ring acas again. I did say before he went if they cant prove deception they wont be able to dismiss on other grouds they would have to find another reason. Which they did. Im glad hes not sacked hes still on pay but its the not knowing. lying to family and freinds. dont know how long this goes on? hes very stressed about it all? is it worth him going sick?hes not in the best state im trying be postive. wondering if we need to consult an employment lawyer., wish we had that flipping email. but cant access in store, he used outlook i think does that get stored on cloud anywhere? if e tell head office then they could arase any evidence there end that email was sent. Hes applied for few other jobs not much out there but hes in the world he wants to leave. but he needs to be sacked to get jsa? but not sure how that look on cv. so bit stuck really.

ok i know just feel so worried, havent had tea cant face eating. trying to keep myself distracted and fubd useful stuff that make us both feel bit less glum. im trying to be positve might get early nite as have another5days of worry before hearing. I just wondered by deception maybe something said in statemnets something false or malicious. yes im clutching at straws because i dont wish him to lose his job /career over innocent mistake. aplogies if been annoying.

Ok in this case it be profit protection. should he ask someone sen him handbook? also found this on acas The purpose of an investigation is to look into potential disciplinary matters to establish the facts of the case. The employee is not entitled to see copies of all allegations during an investigation. However, where the matter escalates to a disciplinary hearing it is good practice that the employee be given sufficient information about the alleged misconduct or poor performance to enable them to prepare to answer the case and defend themselves at the disciplinary meeting. Employers would therefore usually send copies of any documentary evidence they are relying on (e.g. witness statements, emails, transcripts etc) to the employee at the same time as the letter informing them of the time and date of the hearing. For more information on this subject or to discuss a situation specific to your workplace please contact the Acas Helpline. other than the list of purchases hes seen no witness statements. does not know who was questioned. should he know all this stuff prior the hearing? Is it worth him ring acas helpline?

Lol emmizzi made me chuckle. just felt banter uprofessional. caravan made me chuckle hubbsy least caravan loving type ever. will get hin to rg profot protection tommorow? or hr? or regional? I knew union couldent go in there but wondered if they could offer advice. i cant think anyone who could go with him. he has few freinds as such within the company. his 1 freind ot been in touch and think hes too worried to phone him. Apologies if sound like complete fruitcake just been very stressful tme.Just as such massive repurcussions for family fnances and his career. just feel very sad its come to this. thanks for all your advice. hoping behind scenes theres not actually employee in store who has it in for him.

yes it is next week is dispilary so no more investigatation. These facts came to light today not at meeting last week where he was too shell shocked to think straight. so should he ring up profit priotection tommorow in advance of hearing? yes hes being paid until next week anyway. he knows i belive him and thik brought us closer together. in past when we both did investigations in other companies we always had notetaker he only thourght baout it toay when rlooking at acas webste. would joing aunion now be too late, any help or make things owrse. he cant think ayone he wants with him. so next week could be adjourned based on inncaurate purchase hispry and unprofessional banter encloses wth innacurate report? its allengation of deception. so other than tellin the truth which hes done. how does he disprovve the allengation? does deception have a specfic criteria? does the facts of is case meet that? As we already think its not theft as intent was not there. disception seems so vaugue.

I know he has to go and tel it like it is which he will do. I know theres no magic answer. no hes nor reported staff discount abuse as only discovered it today as cae through with disiplnary letter. Most definatly not planned he was wearing expensive par suit bottoms from m&s he told lady who go trousers just pick cheapest pair half decent ones in my size and i will pay for it later. The manager who intereveiwed him he got on well will. he did adjourn and we guess spoke to the lone hr manger in the company via phone. then gave out disiplinary letter and escorted him away. Hes gutted last week hes still in shock. I just want hi to go there next week prepared but most definatly alone. hes so embaressed by it all. I know the staff isount diffrent issue, but an investigation should be far and accurate and his purchase hisstory is innacuare, also got hoi thinking who has it in for him instore made him feel bit paranoid and alone over simple mistake So when should he bring up staff discount? next week or before so they can investigate further? Just feel so powerless an wanted to help in him some way. . will have to wait until tuesday and update you guys then. I guess 3things happen. he can return to work. they adjourn pending further investigations or the dismiss him. its the not knowing thats hard. sorry if im confusing or repeating myself. do value any advice on matter and virtual support.

Hes tried just explaining last week before he got suspension letter so was pretyped before speaking to him. hes been reading acas. it seems the chat was week just him and his line manager/area manager was part of formal investigation and wlll be used next week. But he had no witness and no one took notes is this bad procedure? It wasent until he answered the questions that he realised he was being formally investigated. hes was so upset last week he dident want to talk about it. now im asking him what was said by whom and in what order. really wish had been documented now. The problem is somone in store one of his employees has abused his discount card without his knowldge. This also classed as gross misconduct. Someone in store also reported him. is this the same person does disgrunted empployee have it in for him? He will mention it but will make him look negligant as he dident realised this had gone on his store under his watch,. theres strict rules on staff discountb which hes been careful to adehere to. hes not being displined for theft. hes being displined for deception! up until last week he was one of best mangers in company his area manaher loved him, regional irector hes turned a problem store around brought down stockloss but he has ipset a few employees whilst doing that as was poor culture on comliance within his store in the past. He was brought in new fresh face new to company to trouble shoot. its everyone thinking hes atheif the stress relly taken his toll on him and us a family. hes being paid but if he loses his job means bad times for us as could take him months to get another job at same level espially with dismissed for theft on his records. he dopes not know the manger who doing the hearing ihes off another area and hes worried he will look at col hard facts yes they been taken, not paid for , had 2 chances and hes admitted it and they have evience to coroberarte thats the case. Im guessing the hr manager be there too or another manager as I always done dispiinaries in pairs when I was an employer. hes going to plead his case good history no record of drime sorry accident procedural errors tired due to working excessive hours and bt stressed whch he has been, other than that not sure. How has he committed deception? I cant see it myself.

Part of their evidence is a list itemised items he had purchased with staff discount card during his time with them. resumably to prove hes not paid for trousers as they dont appear on there but he already said they wouldent as he admitted when initailly question I forgot to pay. Looking down at past purchases there are 5 on the list including caravan stuff that hes not knowing purchased or paid for. He mostly pays for stuff with bank card so he can ask his bank to check dates againt their purchase dates . It was obvous stuff liek caravan stuff and walking sticks. They may have been purchased just not by us but appears whoever purchased them used his discount card to get staff discount whih is very worrying. the purchase list is innacurate which is rrelevent to the trousres as he alreadyt admitted taking them accidentally and dident deny it. it was after he told area manager they then said we know you dident pay for them as we looked at history of purchases . but he admitted before he said and known they even looked at his purchses and tehy dident show him list their and then the list arrived today with his disiplinary letter. as i looked at it and was like what are these he says he had no idea hes never purchased them and its mostly likly someone in his stiore has used his code,

1)trousers split he replaced then with trousers off shop floor. company provides uniform just tops employees expected to wear and pay for their own bottoms they not provided. 2)he intended to pay for trousers that day but got involved with customesr and close down and forgot. 3)the next day when putting out tills in morning pre open he check staff iscount price so he knew how much he had to pay, he ident have his wallet on him s they not allowed cash/cards on shop floor. 4)That day again got so involved in his job he forgot but always intended to pay not steal. 5)month later he goes into work area manager pulls him to one side and says nee talk in office. As soon as area manager started to say it he said **** Im so sorry I completly forgot I always intended to pay for it was huge mistake I can pay for it today. Area manager says too late it has to go further. He said he had taken statements-dident say from whom and profot and loss had history of his staff purchase history during his time employed with them he dident show him that but hubby knew what he had brought and paid for and not a great deal really so never thourght to ask but they said thats eveidence as trousers not on their but he owned up and apologised straght away no denying , trying to wriggle his way out of it hes been very honest and he pointed out why would he look up staff discount price if he had no intention on paying. I think tehy will find it hard to prove intent. Theft his whjen he intended to deprice the company of their property. He then got suspension letter sayng they needed to do further investigation. hes not allowed talk to any employees. he was escorted off premises. This was thur its now best part week nearly later and got the letter. The meeting is least 2hour drive plus petrol money as up north and we down south. Syss he allowed to bring someone but confuse as they said hes not allowed talk to anyone. Thre was another manager he was freindly with but hes not been in contact and as he ssays no one would want to be associated with him due to nature of accusation so hes going alone, hes not a member of a union. Its this specic allegations of deception-googled its sounds more like case of fraud than straghtforward crime of theft. will this be hard one for company to prove? hes admitted straight away, apologised , offered to pay for it. He looked up price with intent to pasy as it was one of his staff who pcked the trousers in his size and took to office he had no idea of the price and the what discount he would get as most retailers have 10"0%off retail price, retailers I worked for also offered 75%off uniform items in past arcadia, rive island and next gae greater discount on uniform items as at end of day you advertising their products. Ironically since hubby started he always worn smart suit trousers/business dress and the area mananger teased him and hsaid he needed to be more casual and suggeste he brought more company products and looked more casual. But he only got these that day as was emergency he trousers had split. The discount with his current company is cost price+20%so he would have to look on system to find out as every item has diffrent %discount off depending on profit margins and how cheap they brought it in at. So he dident know the full price or the discounted price when he put them on. next day he found this out but still forgot to pay so missed 2opportunities where he could have paid for these flippng 8quid pair of trousers. Hes not abused staff discount policy as hes not actually paid for them. Although it appears someone has been abusing his staff discount card within his store one of is employess as lots of his purchase history is stuff hes not brought. Hes not falsified any records or lied hes been open , and honest. So how does he defend himself in displinary and argue the allegation is false?or inaccurate. I ssid i dont think he get sacked for this specifc allegation. he says maybe they sack him for breach of compancy policy somehow. I said if thats the case and they try dismiss him for something other than deception, ie staff discount policy of failure to ensure his employess were not abusing staff discount on his watch then that would have to be seprate disiplinary again. As the letter specifically says deception to take company product Im wondering why the company pursuing this so agressivly. what other evidence they have apart from witness statement of emplyee who fetched him trousers where he said he would pay for them later. cctv footage of him wearing and leaving the store in the alleged trousers. hes never denied takking them and not paying for them. staff discount hisprty with trousers missing and other random items hes not purchased on there. intereveiw with his area manager wheres hes been open and hosnest admitted to taking trousers, reasons why he failed to pay for them. what other evidence can there be for trouser theif crime of century? should he ring profit protection and report the inaccuracies ahaead of the disiplnary. Then theirs the handbook, he cant access it online and he was never given a copy when joined theres one in store but hes not allowed in store or contact anyone in store. His contract sauys he agrees and should familirise himself of every rule in handbook but in relaity company handbooks are weighty and I doubt he can remember it all and wouldent have looked to closly at this area as he never imgained after all thse years with siccessful history in retail of being suspended for this crime. So he has no handbook no 1 going with him disipliary mles away hes not allowed near any store shops or speak to any employees. what next? what should he do about the inaccurate purchase history plus the casual unprofessional banter at the top of the letter. would he be better of mentioning it next week then disiplinary be adjourned and arranged for later date?

Sorry had to cut last post short. They enclosed staff discount history as evidence i guess as the flipping trousers were not in it. but hes never denied fact he took the trousers. when questioned he admitted he did but was mistake so not simple case of him saying prove it. however his staff discount purchase is inaccurate. Ant staff discount abuse in his store also be his fault as hes the manager. so even if he reports it could be yet another thng that goes against him. I told him he has no option he has to report it. so should he report it today or at disiplinary? wondered if someone in store has it in for him? as these mystery purchases plus reckon he was reported by someone in store. Also maybe bit irrelevent. whoever emailed profit protection for them to email his purchase history. profit protection replied to this person and copied and pasted his history onto the email. so top half of this printed/photocopied letter was personal banter between the 2work collegues saying something like I will get killed if i get this wrong, wheres a good place to stay. hardly professional behaviour, which makes me worry about professionalism of the investigation, procedures and disiplinary next week I think you have to register caravan with dvla so they could do simple check we dont own a caravan. any advice greatfully received. can he ask who reported him? applogies for error in spellings typing too fast.