PCN yellow box junction, grounds for appeal?

[Jamberson]

 

My wife has been given a pcn by TFL which is exactly the same as the one mentioned to be unenforcable.

 

 

Could you give the post number in the thread which contains the exact wording on your wife's PCN - so there is no misunderstanding.

[bigjl]

Could you give the post number in the thread which contains the exact wording on your wife's PCN - so there is no misunderstanding.

 

Hi,

 

Using mobile so post number didn't come up but I believe it is post 19.

 

The first link which is introduced as the defective notice.

 

The one we have received is identical to the one listed when you follow the link to another thread on the forum. Not the second one from Hammersmith and Fulham.

[Jamberson]

From what I can make out, you are referring to this:

 

example of defective pcnhttp://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...3&d=1307811533

 

I don't think it was explained how and why the wording was defective, but if someone here can clarify that, and yours is identical, they you can draft an appeal.

[bigjl]

Yes that is the matching one.

 

Would certainly appreciate some explanation of what is wrong.

[BG1445]

Speaking as an ex-bus driver in the West Mids, I can answer that. I did hear at nearly very union meeting I went to of at least 1 driver getting a PCN for something or another. So AFAIK bus drivers are certainly not immune from the traffic rules.

 

For the record, I have NEVER, EVER found myself trapped in a box junction by entering when I shouldn't of done. And trust me... I have crossed quite a few in my time.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

 

My old man is a bus driver 73 years old drives buses for the Big Bus company and he got one of them in London.

[Lawrence McGinty]

 

If everyone waited to see if the car in front of them cleared a large box junction, you would have stop/start traffic with just one car moving across at a time. So each car would wait about three seconds for the car in front to clear before they started to move across, and then the next car would move and the following one would wait, and then the next car would move while the following one waited ......... We'd be in gridlock in no time.

 

.

 

Errr, this is how box junctions are meant to work!

 

And the cause of gridlock are the motorists who block other's right of way because you are stuck in a box junction in the first place!

 

Do you even drive?

[Jamberson]

Errr, this is how box junctions are meant to work!

 

No it isn't. You can enter if your exit is clear - you aren't expected to wait for the box to empty out before you enter it.

[green_and_mean]

No it isn't. You can enter if your exit is clear - you aren't expected to wait for the box to empty out before you enter it.

 

 

If the box isn't empty then your exit is not clear.

[Desperate Daniella]

Thank you, Jamberson.

 

Yes, I do drive, Lawrence McGinty, very safely I'm told. Do you?

 

You should have read my post 24 before commenting.

[Jamberson]

If the box isn't empty then your exit is not clear.

 

Surely you can have a clear exit while cars are still passing through the box. So long as the route you are intending to take is not blocked, normal traffic flow will take place.

[green_and_mean]

Surely you can have a clear exit while cars are still passing through the box. So long as the route you are intending to take is not blocked, normal traffic flow will take place.

 

The exit is only clear if there are no vehicles in your way (stopped or moving) the mistake people make is to gamble on getting out before the traffic stops. The simple way to not get a box junction ticket is to not enter unless there is a space big enough for your car directly in front of you on the far side before entering.

[Jamberson]

The exit is only clear if there are no vehicles in your way (stopped or moving) the mistake people make is to gamble on getting out before the traffic stops. The simple way to not get a box junction ticket is to not enter unless there is a space big enough for your car directly in front of you on the far side before entering.

 

I don't think that's right. You can enter the box and stop to give way to oncoming traffic, which will also be passing through the box at the time. The important thing is that your exit route from the junction is not blocked at the time, so that you can get out again. I don't think there is any stipulation that the box be empty before you enter, or the rules would be worded that way.

[Desperate Daniella]

That's all very well if it's a relatively small box junction, but if there is one where about a dozen cars could fill the length of it and it's clear the traffic is moving on steadily on the other side, barring any unexpected hold up like a lorry reversing out of somewhere, surely it's better to keep the traffic flowing?

 

Anyway, isn't an unexpected blocking of your way out of a box junction because circumstances change something that can successfully be appealed on?

[sailor sam]

That's all very well if it's a relatively small box junction, but if there is one where about a dozen cars could fill the length of it and it's clear the traffic is moving on steadily on the other side, barring any unexpected hold up like a lorry reversing out of somewhere, surely it's better to keep the traffic flowing?

 

Anyway, isn't an unexpected blocking of your way out of a box junction because circumstances change something that can successfully be appealed on?

 

Yes if you entered the box when the exit you were intending to take was clear.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Jamberson]

This was debated at length on here some time back - the crucial point is when the offence takes place. Is it when you enter the junction, or is it when you stop?

 

I think it is when you enter the junction. If you enter the box with your exit lane clear, but then have to stop because circumstances have changed, I don't think you are guilty of anything - you haven't entered with a blocked exit.

 

If the offence was committed at the point at which you stop, then obviously you have. Your exit is not clear at that point.

 

The Highway Code states :

 

"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear"

 

...so it's concerned with the circumstances at the point at which you take the decision to enter the box.

[green_and_mean]

This was debated at length on here some time back - the crucial point is when the offence takes place. Is it when you enter the junction, or is it when you stop?

 

I think it is when you enter the junction. If you enter the box with your exit lane clear, but then have to stop because circumstances have changed, I don't think you are guilty of anything - you haven't entered with a blocked exit.

 

If the offence was committed at the point at which you stop, then obviously you have. Your exit is not clear at that point.

 

The Highway Code states :

 

"You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear"

 

...so it's concerned with the circumstances at the point at which you take the decision to enter the box.

 

 

Highway code is not the law that is worded as follows...

 

no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles

 

 

The wording is open to interpretation but the offence is when you stop having entered and then been forced to stop by a stationary vehicle.

[Lawrence McGinty]

No it isn't. You can enter if your exit is clear - you aren't expected to wait for the box to empty out before you enter it.

 

As member green_and_mean has stated.

 

You can correctly negotiate a box junction if, as you say, your exit is clear, however, you are meant to wait for the box to empty in the first place or you could end up blocking all other routes if the lights change and your exit had still not cleared.

 

This is basic stuff that many motorists simply cannot comprehend.

[Lawrence McGinty]

Thank you, Jamberson.

 

Yes, I do drive, Lawrence McGinty, very safely I'm told. Do you?

 

You should have read my post 24 before commenting.

 

I simply replied to your other post where you seemed bemused as to what you are meant to do at a box junction.

 

I asked do you even drive because you clearly think different to what you should be doing.

[Jamberson]

As member green_and_mean has stated.

 

You can correctly negotiate a box junction if, as you say, your exit is clear, however, you are meant to wait for the box to empty in the first place or you could end up blocking all other routes if the lights change and your exit had still not cleared.

 

This is basic stuff that many motorists simply cannot comprehend.

 

There is a specific allowance for entering the junction while oncoming traffic is passing through the box, provided your exit is clear. I have never heard of anything stipulating that the box has to be empty, although of course I can follow the logic. But if you pass through a box junction in a flow of traffic and no-one stops, no offence has been committed because there is no requirement to wait for the box to be empty.

 

It's the ambiguity of what constitutes the offence which is the main issue. I disagree with G&M's reading of the law, but that's just my humble opinion.

[green_and_mean]

There is a specific allowance for entering the junction while oncoming traffic is passing through the box, provided your exit is clear.

 

No there isn't.

 

There is an exemption on stopping due to oncoming traffic if you are turning right. Anyone can enter the box exit clear or not that is not an offence, what you cannot do is stop due to stationary traffic. The only way to ensure you are not going to stop due to stationary traffic is to ensure there is enough room to exit before you enter. If you follow another car in which then stops at the far side of the box leaving you trapped in the box the offence is still complete even if the road in front of the car ahead is clear.

[Jamberson]

There is an exemption on stopping due to oncoming traffic if you are turning right.

 

My point was, and is, that there is no requirement for the box to be empty of vehicles. Oncoming traffic may be inside the box when you enter it, and no offence committed.

 

You said above that the wording of the law is open to interpretation. When you quoted "no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles" you could choose to read it thus:

 

"no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles" - the offence is causing the vehicle to enter the junction, if xyz ensues.

 

Or, you could interpret it as you have. It's ambiguous. What matters is how adjudicators interpret it.

[green_and_mean]

My point was, and is, that there is no requirement for the box to be empty of vehicles. Oncoming traffic may be inside the box when you enter it, and no offence committed.

 

You said above that the wording of the law is open to interpretation. When you quoted "no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles" you could choose to read it thus:

 

"no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles" - the offence is causing the vehicle to enter the junction, if xyz ensues.

 

Or, you could interpret it as you have. It's ambiguous. What matters is how adjudicators interpret it.

 

Its fairly obvious that you would have to enter the box to commit the offence, but its when you stop that the offence is complete just entering the box empty or not is never an offence.

 

The entering section is there because its not an offence if you are already (legally) stopped and then cannot move.

 

khan v Tfl

 

........However as we have previously stated it is our view that if moving traffic becomes stationary after a driver has entered the box then this is his risk and the contravention does occur. We are satisfied therefore that the previous Adjudicator arrived at the correct conclusion that there had been a contravention. There are no grounds for review and we refuse the application. The appeal will therefore stand as having been refused.

[Jamberson]

Its fairly obvious that you would have to enter the box to commit the offence, but its when you stop that the offence is complete just entering the box empty or not is never an offence.

 

The entering section is there because its not an offence if you are already (legally) stopped and then cannot move.

 

khan v Tfl

 

........However as we have previously stated it is our view that if moving traffic becomes stationary after a driver has entered the box then this is his risk and the contravention does occur. We are satisfied therefore that the previous Adjudicator arrived at the correct conclusion that there had been a contravention. There are no grounds for review and we refuse the application. The appeal will therefore stand as having been refused.

 

I think you are right, but you are proving the wrong point.

 

This comes back to post 32 and an assertion that one should not enter a box junction unless it is empty, in case circumstances unfold, causing the vehicle to stop. This will be true in some cases, as in the case you cited, but not as a universal. You can enter a box while your exit is clear, and stop inside it, and still not commit the offence. Here is an example ruling. It boils down to the particular circumstances.

 

 

Case Reference: 2100446400

Appellant: Mr Roger Arnold

Authority: Transport for London

Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Decision Date: 14 Oct 2010

Appeal Decision: Allowed

The authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Battersea Bridge Road/Westbridge Road/Parkgate Road on 2 July 2010 at 13,41.

The Appellant denies the contravention. I have considered the evidence and watched the DVD footage a number of times and I have decided that this penalty charge notice cannot be upheld for a number of reasons:

First, I find, that when the Appellant's vehicle entered the box junction her exit was clear.

Second, that the black vehicle to the right of the Appellant's vehicle was drifting across the Appellant's path.

Third, whilst the Appellant's car undoubtedly did come partially to a halt for 7 seconds within the box junction, the DVD footage shows that at the point when the vehicle entered the marked area, there appeared to be sufficient room available beyond the markings to allow his vehicle to pass through the junction without stopping.

Four, I find that, although the Appellant's vehicle stopped, it did not do so "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" but due to the vehicle to his right moving in his direction.

Five, the commencement of a bus lane on the other side of the box junction also contributed to this incident because it appears to cause two lanes of traffic to have to enter one.

Taking all these matters together I find that this appeal must be allowed.

[green_and_mean]

I think you are right, but you are proving the wrong point.

 

This comes back to post 32 and an assertion that one should not enter a box junction unless it is empty, in case circumstances unfold, causing the vehicle to stop. This will be true in some cases, as in the case you cited, but not as a universal. You can enter a box while your exit is clear, and stop inside it, and still not commit the offence. Here is an example ruling. It boils down to the particular circumstances.

 

 

Case Reference: 2100446400

Appellant: Mr Roger Arnold

Authority: Transport for London

Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Decision Date: 14 Oct 2010

Appeal Decision: Allowed

The authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Battersea Bridge Road/Westbridge Road/Parkgate Road on 2 July 2010 at 13,41.

The Appellant denies the contravention. I have considered the evidence and watched the DVD footage a number of times and I have decided that this penalty charge notice cannot be upheld for a number of reasons:

First, I find, that when the Appellant's vehicle entered the box junction her exit was clear.

Second, that the black vehicle to the right of the Appellant's vehicle was drifting across the Appellant's path.

Third, whilst the Appellant's car undoubtedly did come partially to a halt for 7 seconds within the box junction, the DVD footage shows that at the point when the vehicle entered the marked area, there appeared to be sufficient room available beyond the markings to allow his vehicle to pass through the junction without stopping.

Four, I find that, although the Appellant's vehicle stopped, it did not do so "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" but due to the vehicle to his right moving in his direction.

Five, the commencement of a bus lane on the other side of the box junction also contributed to this incident because it appears to cause two lanes of traffic to have to enter one.

Taking all these matters together I find that this appeal must be allowed.

Didn't stop due to stationary vehicles.....no offence, the rest is just window dressing and would not have stood on its own.

 

[BigG123]

Didn`t go down well, did it?

Bitter pill is hard to swallow, I do not want to go on slanging match, I do not ignore or disregards the traffic signs, just at times human beings are in a difficult situations completely out of their control, and authorities want to take advantage of that and want to fine people left, right and centre, instead of using some discretion and accept that some people will make some mistakes.

In my case the traffic emerging from the left lane was not allowing the traffic on the main road to cross the yellow box, had waited at least 6 times changing of lights and had not got any opportunities to cross the YBJ, and eventually when I did was only in YBJ for 2 seconds, and only because a van came from the left and blocked my exit route.

The ticket itself was issued on technicality, so I am quite entitled to defend my case on the same terms,I agree there are lots of PCN here in different format, but YBJ is written in same legal wordings, no matter which authority is enforcing them, so the main body is same, whichever local authority issued them, and we are talking about YBJ PCN and not others.

The enforcement authorities, and machinery that enforces the PCN is corrupt, dishonest, and their only purpose is to trap an innocent motorist, for financial gain.

They lie through their teeth, about sending the documents when in fact they do not because they know they are going to be challenged, and if you have bailiffs on your door than you might just pay-up.

There is nothing idiotic about it, just being intelligent, and you do not like it because you think you are always right, and nobody is more intelligent than you.

Cheerio, will not reply to you again, if you find other people comments, which might be of contrarian nature, offensive.

 

Although this post is old. I make you right in every word you stated. Welldone! [REMOVED]

Edited April 4, 2014 by dx100uk
behave - dx siteteam