Jump to content


PCN yellow box junction, grounds for appeal?


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 820 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

I've received a PCN from Hammersmith / Chelsea council for stopping in a yellow box junction.

 

Video:

 

I'm sure I saw the cars ahead of me and judged there would be enough room, but if you look the blue citroen (3 cars in front of mine) stops earlier than expected, leaving a huge gap, if it had moved even 1 metre closer I would have been outside of the yellow box.

 

Do I have any grounds for appeal?

 

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

poss

but you clearly entered the box when there was already stationary traffic the other side.

you gambled that the traffic would keep flowing giving your room

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
I've received a PCN from Hammersmith / Chelsea council for stopping in a yellow box junction.

 

Video:

 

I'm sure I saw the cars ahead of me and judged there would be enough room, but if you look the blue citroen (3 cars in front of mine) stops earlier than expected, leaving a huge gap, if it had moved even 1 metre closer I would have been outside of the yellow box.

 

Do I have any grounds for appeal?

 

Mark

 

The blue citroen is actually a Fiat 500 but hey ho. The offence “no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles” so the offence is only complete if you have to stop within the box. The CCTV clearly shows that the rear of you car is within the box while you are stationary. You obviously failed to anticipate that the traffic on the other side may stop in front of you leaving you stranded in the box.

 

No obvious grounds of appeal but you should still try by saying that you were not obstructing any other traffic flow nor was there any prospect of you doing so and that only a small proportion of your vehicle was within the box when you were forced to stop. Best thing to do is admit you were in the wrong but you were not likely to obstruct any other traffic.

 

You may find this helpful; http://ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow-box-junctions/

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies.

 

Sorry for any offence caused to Fiat 500 drivers.

 

I did already have a look on the ticketfighter site however it confused me and as there was no forum to I came here.

 

Here's a quote from that article:

Suffice to say I and the appellant do not agree with this. The implications are huge. In practice it means that every vehicle would have to wait for the one in front to clear the junction before they go!

 

This implies the article writer believes a driver should not have to wait for the car in front to clear the box, but surely that is the only way to be 100% sure you will not stop in the box.

Love driving in London.

 

Mark

Link to post
Share on other sites

ok appeal is rather technical and complicated and may not be 100% but worth a punt.

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3529.pdf

 

Above document authorises the box junctions to be used so that is covered, however....

 

a) There is no advance warning of the bus lane until you cross the junction as far as I can see so you may set off thinking you can exit the box and then realise the left hand lane is a bus lane.

 

b The above authorisation does not state that the 'approved' markings have the same meaning as the proper box junction markings as shown in the TSRGD. It does say they are a RTA 1988 sect 36 sign which means they can be enforced by the police but only the signs in the TSRGD may be enforced using the London Local Authority act 2003. The text of the document should state they have the same 'meaning' as diag 1043 but as far as I can see it doesn't

Link to post
Share on other sites

just appeal saying the PCN wording is incorrect, case reference number 2100498211, Dabiri-v-TFL

Decision date 14th Dec 1010, and PCN is un-enforceable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
just appeal saying the PCN wording is incorrect, case reference number 2100498211, Dabiri-v-TFL

Decision date 14th Dec 1010, and PCN is un-enforceable.

 

Are you psychic how do you even know what the PCN says?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
Are you psychic how do you even know what the PCN says?

 

No I am not Psychic, it is just that I got the PCN for the same offence ie YBJ and contested the PCN all the way to the tribunal and won on those grounds.

Nothing psychic about it, just determination to succeed.

Link to post
Share on other sites
No I am not Psychic, it is just that I got the PCN for the same offence ie YBJ and contested the PCN all the way to the tribunal and won on those grounds.

Nothing psychic about it, just determination to succeed.

 

So you think every Council uses the same wording as Tfl?

Link to post
Share on other sites

]it looks like you might be on the payroll of traffic enforcement companies,

 

as you show total distaste of someone correctly proving the [EDIT] who live off the earnings of honest hard working people,

 

who sometimes have to make a decision to choose to pay between paying a fine or feed their children,

 

as all the traffic enforcement industry that has sprung up from local authorities to bailiffs whose only purpose is to fleece the motorists.

 

PCN wording is the same whichever authority issues them, if in doubt please obtain the sample copy and compare.

Edited by dx100uk
behave - dx
Link to post
Share on other sites
]it looks like you might be on the payroll of traffic enforcement companies,

 

as you show total distaste of someone correctly proving the [EDIT] who live off the earnings of honest hard working people,

 

who sometimes have to make a decision to choose to pay between paying a fine or feed their children,

 

as all the traffic enforcement industry that has sprung up from local authorities to bailiffs whose only purpose is to fleece the motorists.

 

PCN wording is the same whichever authority issues them, if in doubt please obtain the sample copy and compare.

 

 

Since being rude seems to be acceptable to you I might add you sound you are a complete idiot that doesn't know what they are talking about! There are hundreds of PCNs on here and they are all different depending on the local authority. If you are so perfect and considerate it would seem rather contradictory you decided to ignore a traffic sign and obstruct a box junction and rely on a technicality to get off.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn`t go down well, did it?

Bitter pill is hard to swallow, I do not want to go on slanging match, I do not ignore or disregards the traffic signs, just at times human beings are in a difficult situations completely out of their control, and authorities want to take advantage of that and want to fine people left, right and centre, instead of using some discretion and accept that some people will make some mistakes.

In my case the traffic emerging from the left lane was not allowing the traffic on the main road to cross the yellow box, had waited at least 6 times changing of lights and had not got any opportunities to cross the YBJ, and eventually when I did was only in YBJ for 2 seconds, and only because a van came from the left and blocked my exit route.

The ticket itself was issued on technicality, so I am quite entitled to defend my case on the same terms,I agree there are lots of PCN here in different format, but YBJ is written in same legal wordings, no matter which authority is enforcing them, so the main body is same, whichever local authority issued them, and we are talking about YBJ PCN and not others.

The enforcement authorities, and machinery that enforces the PCN is corrupt, dishonest, and their only purpose is to trap an innocent motorist, for financial gain.

They lie through their teeth, about sending the documents when in fact they do not because they know they are going to be challenged, and if you have bailiffs on your door than you might just pay-up.

There is nothing idiotic about it, just being intelligent, and you do not like it because you think you are always right, and nobody is more intelligent than you.

Cheerio, will not reply to you again, if you find other people comments, which might be of contrarian nature, offensive.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The case you cited above was won because of the technical wording advising of the 28-day pament period. Some councils are still issuing defective wording - many are not. Unless you know that this PCN has defective wording, it's not much help to tell someone their PCN is unenforceable. You need to get some facts on the table before you come to conclusions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish I had seen this earlier. What happened?

 

I had something similar and they accepted my appeal.

 

I got stuck at the end of a box junction because I was following a police van which had faulty brake lights, but that wasn't the grounds for the appeal.

 

Like this car, they had no picture of my car showing my registration actually in the box junction. I didn't have a video, just pictures, but they had to accept they couldn't prove my car was blocking the junction. This could be different because it's a video, but you can't see this vehicle's registration plate while it is in the box.

 

BTW, I am fit to kill people who block box junctions and block traffic, but it really irritates me that the offence is entering the box junction because sometimes traffic does stop unexpectedly. That is the money making element. The offence should be blocking traffic while in a box junction!

 

Also, there is a box junction in Fulham on the Kings Road, Harwood Road, Wandsworth Bridge Road area which is a complete cash cow and makes £xxxxx every day, so you definitely want to watch out for that one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just tried to amend something and wiped the entire post. :evil:

 

I wish I had seen this earlier, and wondered what happened.

 

I had something similar when I got caught in a box junction following a police van with faulty brake lights, but that wasn't my grounds for appeal.

 

Like this vehicle there were no pictures of my car's registration plate while I was in the box junction because of the car in front. I appealed on this basis and they accepted it. It might be different here because it is a video, but again there is no footage of the vehicle's registration plate when it is stationary in the box junction.

 

I get furious when people block box junctions, but the offence really should be blocking a box junction, rather than entering one and getting stuck when you are not in any way causing an obstruction. This shows that the aim is to get money, rather than to keep the traffic flowing.

 

There is an awful box junction in Fulham on the Kings Road with the junction of Wandsworth Bridge Road and Harwood Road where only two vehicles will usually get through at a time because of the traffic lights timing. Watch out for that one. Hammersmith and Fulham Council make a small fortune out of that one every day. Watch out for that one!

Link to post
Share on other sites
At least someone knows what I am talking about.

 

I think you will find Jamberson is agreeing with me but don't let minor details get in the way of a good rant! I've actually had thousands of £s of PCNs cancelled by giving accurate impartial advice based on the evidence supplied. Giving the wrong advice is going to cost the recipient more money in the long run making your anti Council agenda rather counter productive.

 

Here is your case from 2010:

 

Whilst I am satisfied from the CCTV evidence that the appellant's vehicle entered the box junction without being able to exit the other side completely clearly and that it stopped in the box junction (long enough for a Penalty Charge Notice to be issued) due to the presence of stationary vehicles, the appeal is nevertheless allowed, as the Penalty Charge Notice is defective and unenforceable: whilst the Penalty Charge Notice correctly states that the 14-day and 28-day payment periods begin with the date of the notice in accordance with section 4(8)(iii) and (iv) of the London Local Authorities & Transport for London Act 2003, the Penalty Charge Notice then goes on to incorrectly state "If you fail to pay the Penalty Charge Notice or make representations before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice..." when the 'date of service' provision does not apply to the 14-day and 28-day payment periods (see above) - it only applies to the local authority having a discretion to disregard representations received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the Penalty Charge Notice in question was served (in accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 1 to the 2003 Act).

 

example of defective pcn http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28313&d=1307811533

 

 

Here is a Hammersmith PCN (the Council that issued the OPs PCN) http://s1070.photobucket.com/user/Johnxxx1/media/LBHFSPCNFront.jpg.html

 

Can you spot the difference????

 

 

I'll help you out....... the LBHF one correctly states the 'date of service' only applies to the representations the date of payment is correctly stated as from the 'date of notice'

 

Maybe you should get a job at the Daily Mail as you never let facts in the way of a good rant!

Link to post
Share on other sites
The offence should be blocking traffic while in a box junction!

 

 

Maybe jumping traffic lights and speeding should only be an offence if you hit someone? How are you going to know if you are going to block someone unless you can see into the future? Its not difficult to avoid getting caught, you wait until the otherside is clear enough to cross without stopping.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Maybe jumping traffic lights and speeding should only be an offence if you hit someone? How are you going to know if you are going to block someone unless you can see into the future? Its not difficult to avoid getting caught, you wait until the otherside is clear enough to cross without stopping.

 

That is not the point, as you well know. Jumping traffic lights and speeding are dangerous. Getting caught in stationary traffic at the end of a box junction where you are not blocking anyone isn't.

 

If everyone waited to see if the car in front of them cleared a large box junction, you would have stop/start traffic with just one car moving across at a time. So each car would wait about three seconds for the car in front to clear before they started to move across, and then the next car would move and the following one would wait, and then the next car would move while the following one waited ......... We'd be in gridlock in no time.

 

It is more often than not possible to see if the traffic is flowing on the other side of the junction. If any car stopped and waited at a box junction while the car in front completely crossed to the other side where there was an apparently clear road ahead, then the hooting behind them would be deafening.

 

Is that seriously what you think people should do? Stop, wait, go. Next car: Stop, wait, go. Next car: Stop, wait, go. ???

 

I think most people sensibly anticipate that they will be able to completely cross but on one occasion in about 20,000 might get caught because the traffic stops suddenly due to an unexpected hold up in front. These drivers are totally different to those who quite deliberately cross a box junction knowing full well that the way ahead is jammed, and where I live these are usually buses.

 

Do you know if bus drivers who block box junctions get a PCN and have to pay it? Or are they allowed to do it with no penalty because they are public transport? That is a serious question.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking as an ex-bus driver in the West Mids, I can answer that. I did hear at nearly very union meeting I went to of at least 1 driver getting a PCN for something or another. So AFAIK bus drivers are certainly not immune from the traffic rules.

 

For the record, I have NEVER, EVER found myself trapped in a box junction by entering when I shouldn't of done. And trust me... I have crossed quite a few in my time.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That is not the point, as you well know. Jumping traffic lights and speeding are dangerous. Getting caught in stationary traffic at the end of a box junction where you are not blocking anyone isn't.

 

If everyone waited to see if the car in front of them cleared a large box junction, you would have stop/start traffic with just one car moving across at a time. So each car would wait about three seconds for the car in front to clear before they started to move across, and then the next car would move and the following one would wait, and then the next car would move while the following one waited ......... We'd be in gridlock in no time.

 

It is more often than not possible to see if the traffic is flowing on the other side of the junction. If any car stopped and waited at a box junction while the car in front completely crossed to the other side where there was an apparently clear road ahead, then the hooting behind them would be deafening.

 

Is that seriously what you think people should do? Stop, wait, go. Next car: Stop, wait, go. Next car: Stop, wait, go. ???

 

I think most people sensibly anticipate that they will be able to completely cross but on one occasion in about 20,000 might get caught because the traffic stops suddenly due to an unexpected hold up in front. These drivers are totally different to those who quite deliberately cross a box junction knowing full well that the way ahead is jammed, and where I live these are usually buses.

 

Do you know if bus drivers who block box junctions get a PCN and have to pay it? Or are they allowed to do it with no penalty because they are public transport? That is a serious question.

 

Buses are not exempt but whether the drivers pay the PCN is down to the vehicle owner.

 

I fail to see how stopping at a box junction if the otherside is blocked is going to cause a problem? You stop at pedestrian crossings, you stop at traffic lights, you give way at junctions how is waiting for a clear exit at a box junction any different? My local Council doesn't enforce moving traffic and every box junction is grid locked in the rush hour they may as well have saved the paint and spent the money on something else. Its the same as parking tickets most people learn just enough about driving to scrape through the test most do not have a clue on what road signs mean, how to drive in traffic or what parking regulations are. Rather than slag off councils for preying on those that contravene maybe some peoples time would be better spent campaigning for better driver education.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I can't believe the TfL ones pay for their tickets because they are always doing it. And they speed through our 20 mph zone doing at least 30 mph. And the ones that people can flag down stop on bends which means drivers either dice with death to pass or the traffic backs up to the junction behind them and blocks that road too. (Actually I did complain to TfL about that one and it has improved.)

 

I am not talking about not entering the junction when you can clearly see the traffic on the other side is not moving, is blocked, and you cannot clear the junction. People who do that are morons. I am talking about situations where you can see over the junction that the traffic is moving and you should be able to cross. But, all of a sudden one car that has just crossed the junction with a clear road ahead and other cars following it, stops to allow someone from an office car park or off road parking space to back out on to the road. He thinks he is being courteous but in fact he's stopping several cars in the box junction and they will get PCNs. How is that fair?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Hi all, I've seen the post from Green and Mean in May of this year re appeal the TFL PCN's for box junctions on the gorunds of wrongly worded PCN's.

 

The PCN I've got has the same wording as the one you state is wrong which has me feeling positve, however, and call me Mr Thickie if you want, can anyone help me as to how I would appeal on the grounds of the incorrect wording?

 

Do I use the form they sent me for appeal or do I need to create my own letter?

 

Appreciate any help you can offer,

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...