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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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Thames water-Moorcroft debt collector-Asking lodger to pay debt


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didn't see any butt kickin.....just caggers giving their opinions and advice, and the OP having the option to do as they please with it. but then maybe I am thick skinned....don't take offence easily and just welcome all comments and take the good ones and iggy the ones I don't agree with........its simple really.

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I don’t understand – why the ‘prove it’ letter? You know what the debt is actually about and whose responsibility it is, so why beat about the bush? It situations like this, relying on standard templates is lazy and pointless – and disingenuous, as you most certainly do know what it’s about.

 

Deal with the idiots head on!

 

You need something a bit more direct, that states clearly the debt has nothing to do with you, that it was the landlord’s responsibility, and that you are reporting them to the OFT fand ICO or breaches of debt collection guidelines and data protection breaches. Reiterate that they are already fully aware that you are not the debtor, and it was not and is not your responsibility to deal with the landlord about this. State that any further contact with you will be considered criminal harassment, and you will contact the police.

 

Okay - I have no background on dealing in such situations and hence had a happiest time of the day when I got the link to the "Prove it" letter and fellow members asked me to us it as the first correspondence. I am confident in sending it as a standard template would have prevented my newbie wordings to be passed on to Moorcrap or TW hence minimizing the chance of them coming back !

 

But I somewhat agree that it *might* (no offence to ncm-000 or others) be a better idea to mold the letter a bit tailored to my situation?

 

I don't use templates - I prefer really stinking letters! - but bowcreek is new and I know that some new members prefer to work with templates. The templates given on the forum are always accurate in what they say.

 

Thanks and agree with you Desperate Daniella. I would have preferred to use the Prove it letter. But I can attempt to write down a tailored version of the prove it letter by stealing the lines from various posts mentioning various "laws" and doing a bit of bodyshop work on the letter.

 

Can post it here before I send it over for experienced members to review.

 

Would that work for you guys . Hoping that I am not being a pain !!

 

Glad to be part of this forum at right time....

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An email is a document and even with an automated reply its proof they received it, but if you prefer paper trail then any letter IMO is best sent recorded so you can know when they received it etc. I would write to TW directly and ignore the moorcrappers as I cant abide DCA's, also TW should advise them of any query, especially as your not the homeowner and have paperwork to prove its not even your debt.

 

Thanks Ruby_Tuesday for quick turn around..

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But I somewhat agree that it *might* (no offence to ncm-000 or others).

 

None taken, you are new here so I offered the simplest route, does not mean it is the most appropriate.

 

I would have preferred to use the Prove it letter. But I can attempt to write down a tailored version of the prove it letter by stealing the lines from various posts mentioning various "laws" and doing a bit of bodyshop work on the letter..

 

Bespoke letters are always better than templates, but hard to write and many do not feel confident in doing so.

 

Can post it here before I send it over for experienced members to review.

 

Standard practice, I am sure one of the 'Big Guns' will be more than pleased to assist you with the letter.

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Never a pain – all the input so far from everyone has been more than useful, and it’s all going in the right direction.

 

The Prove It letter would have certainly worked long term, no doubt, but as you are the innocent party here, you can make your case in such a way that if they persist in harassing you, you can go for the jugular.

 

CAG’s a community, everyone’s always learning, and not everyone is on here 24 hours a day.

 

Yes, post up your letter. Sure it will be great. Don’t hold back! State the facts and produce a timeline of events that leaves them in no doubt that you know what you are talking about. That’s the real power.

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None taken, you are new here so I offered the simplest route, does not mean it is the most appropriate.

 

 

 

Bespoke letters are always better than templates, but hard to write and many do not feel confident in doing so.

 

 

 

Standard practice, I am sure one of the 'Big Guns' will be more than pleased to assist you with the letter.

Happy to help with a letter if needed,!!

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Thanks Brigadier - Did you mean you can draft a letter ?

 

Yes certainly! Just add any more details that might help here and I will draft a letter for you.

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Okay - Please don't beat me with a stick and excuse me for my ignorance..! While writing a response to Bregadier to provide more details for writing the letter, I took out the letter from my file which I got from (PLEASE NOTE) - "CWC - Debt recovery Specialists" and not Moorcroft... in december. So it was actually CWC and not Moorcroft who sent me the letter and whom I had spoken with.

 

BUT

 

The reason I started mentioning about this company called Moorcroft right from the beginning of this thread, is that recently the texts and Automated calls which I have been getting are from Moorcroft - in which thet are asking to respond with my e-mail address and have also given an account number regarding which they want to get in touch with me...and I thought it was Moorcroft only which issued me that letter in the beginning! Apologies...!

 

So now I am getting the calls and texts from Moorcroft to which I haven't responded at all. It has the account number different from the one mentioned in letter from CWC. But I am 99% sure that its the same case which CWC was handling which has now been passed onto Moorcroft to work on ...

 

So ideally I haven't had any confirmation or communication with Moorcroft to know for what are they trying to get in touch with - What should I do? Should I contact them back with my e-mail address ? Should I call them? or should I enquire by logging into their site using the given account number in texts?

 

I can't write a letter to Moorcroft without any confirmation on what they are chasing me for - formally..!!

 

Sorry again for confusing you all :(

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Yes a ''prove it'' letter to Moorcrap is needed do you want me to draft that for you?

Any Letters I Draft are N0T approved by CAG and no personal liability is accepted.

Please Consider making a donation to keep this site running!

Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit: Animo et Fide:

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Yes a ''prove it'' letter to Moorcrap is needed do you want me to draft that for you?

 

Until Moorcroft shows it’s hand, and you know they’re chasing the alleged TW debt, there’s nothing to prove!

 

Suggest the letter simply goes to Thames Water if they are the only ones you have had proper correspondence from. So was it CWC chasing you rather than the landlord? If so, that’s Thames Water themselves chasing the wrong person!

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Until Moorcroft shows it’s hand, and you know they’re chasing the alleged TW debt, there’s nothing to prove!

 

Suggest the letter simply goes to Thames Water if they are the only ones you have had proper correspondence from. So was it CWC chasing you rather than the landlord? If so, that’s Thames Water themselves chasing the wrong person!

 

Yes a ''prove it'' letter to Moorcrap is needed do you want me to draft that for you?

 

Thanks for being patient !

 

Agreed, Moorcroft haven't formally showed their hands saying they are chasing me for that debt or whatever and I haven't spoken/contacted them yet either.

 

They have just been sending me texts to keep in touch regarding account number mentioned in the texts. So I can't issue a prove it letter at the moment to them.

 

Yes, I had spoken with CWC earlier and the letter was issues by them only...back in december.

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As there seems to have been a heated debate here about what bowcreek should or shouldn't do, I thought I would offer my two'penneth!

 

bowcreek mentioned about info on his/her credit file in post 1, I am not aware that water companies register an account with CRA's , mine certainly isn't but I'm not with TW. So I would suggest checking this to make sure.

 

bowcreek has also moved out of the house and never had an account with TW so why bother doing anything at all? As the landlord advised, I think I would ignore them!

 

Were you on the electoral roll whilst you were living at the address bowcreek? If you were, this is most probably how Moorcroft got your name and wrote to you hoping you would pay up!

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Evening Dotty! Nothing heated here, just a bit of equine guffawing and tomfoolery. :-)

 

Moorcroft hasn’t written, it’s CWC (ie. Thames Water’s in house debt collector) that has written – Moorcroft is bothering the OP but hasn’t properly revealed why yet.

 

As you say, I think TW is fishing for someone to chase for the money, and as Moorcroft is not involved but is harassing the OP, I think he has every right to complain about this and put his objections forward. Getting a resolution in distressing events like this is only fair, and a nasty letter can be fun to do... especially if they don’t go away and it then becomes criminal harassment.

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Hi DonkeyB,

 

post one states that Moorcroft have written on behalf of TW, I'm assuming that TW wouldn't write to anyone else apart from whose name is on the bill, if they have, wouldn't that be a breach of Data protection? Moorcroft don't care and will harass anyone that is likely to pay up.

 

I agree, everyone has the right to complain, I just like to do as little as possible and Moorcroft won't be losing any sleep over this!

 

If the OP recognises the numbers when Moorcroft call then they can easily be ignored and they will soon get fed up of calling.

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Having received calls on my mobile about debts that aren't mine, I would think twice before assuming that texts that you have received are in any way related to any letters that you have received from some-one else!

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as Moorcroft is not involved but is harassing the OP, I think he has every right to complain about this and put his objections forward. Getting a resolution in distressing events like this is only fair, and a nasty letter can be fun to do... especially if they don’t go away and it then becomes criminal harassment.

 

The texts I have received are as follows:

 

Mr.xxx, pls reply with your e-mail address so we can get in touch re:Moorcroft acct#xxxxx or call 01614752979.

 

The first text was received on 3rd Apr and another reminder with same text was received on 9th Apr. Meanwhile I got an automated call as well "asking me to confirm if I am the person they are asking the name for.." by saying yes or no .!! I just hung up..!!

 

Not sure if with this I can still send them a letter and this can be treated as harassment? Its true that I don't know why am I getting these calls and texts to get in touch for. !! (But tricky bit is I know it would be for Thames water matter).

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