Accused of Flytipping

[Tinkerbelle]

This morning I received a hand delivered notice from my local Council accusing me of flytipping. It was addressed to a Mr and the last time I checked I was definitely female.

 

According to their notice on 12/10/06 at 15:30hrs I had "placed domestic waste on the footway in XXX XXXXXXXXXXX Road"

 

It gave me the option to pay £50 within 14 days or £75 within 21 days.

 

Now........I have been living at my property for 5 years. It is a converted flat above an office on a parade. We don't have wheelie bins. We don't have recycle bins. For the past 5 years I, like everyone else have placed our rubbish by the lamppost on the pavement.

 

So I would like to know what the hell are they on? Considering I had been out of the country until late Monday evening of last week, I'd like to know what on earth I could have accumulated over 2 and a half days that "posed a health and safety problem". I haven't been on a mega shopping spree. In fact I don't even recall putting any rubbish out last week Thu, and if I did it would have been the same type of black bin liner that I have been putting out for the past 5 years.

 

As soon as I got into work this morning I called them up and asked them to explain to me what the hell this was all about, but the telephone operator said that someone would call me back. She had better hope and pray that by the time she calls back I have calmed down otherwise she will have wished she stayed in bed this morning

 

****ed off is an understatement.

[Rob S]

Have you checked their website to see what their policies are on this? It might be worthwhile contacting the refuse department and find out their guidelines as to how someone in your position is supposed to put your rubbish out on collection days, given there are no wheelie bins or other facilities available.

[Tinkerbelle]

Have you checked their website to see what their policies are on this? It might be worthwhile contacting the refuse department and find out their guidelines as to how someone in your position is supposed to put your rubbish out on collection days, given there are no wheelie bins or other facilities available.

 

I will have a look at their website, but there is a van that patrols the areas at least twice a day picking up bags and rubbish from the side of the pavement.

 

The woman from the Council has just rang me and told me she would have to call the refuse team to find out what it was all about as she had nothing in front of her

 

I will ask her as well when she calls back what their policy is.

[Movingon]

If they insist that you are "Flytipping" then let them take you to court. Just what you've said here will be sufficient evidence for anyone with sense to see they're being stupid.

[Jimbo44]

.........I'd like to know what on earth I could have accumulated over 2 and a half days that "posed a health and safety problem".............

 

This may not relate the the actual contents of your rubbish bag. I think it more likely the "H&S" reference is to the fact that it was on the footpath and a passer-by might trip over it, fall, injure themself and sue the council.

 

 

Jimbo44

[isidore]

I had some problems with my rubbish last week (in Cardiff). Had too much for my wheelie bin so I put a bag down next to the bin. They emptied the wheelie bin but didn't take the bag!

 

A neighbour of mine works for the council and told me that they no longer take bags unless they are in the bin - even if the bin has 10 bags hanging from the top of it they must be in (on) the bin!!

 

He said that there are bar codes on the bins and if you offend, your bar code is scanned and it's basically a case of "three strikes and you're out", 3 offences and you get a £75 fine.

 

Now whether that is how it works where you live I don't know. How that relates to you and your lack of wheelie bins I don't know either but thought that this info would be of use to you when they ring you back.

[Tinkerbelle]

This may not relate the the actual contents of your rubbish bag. I think it more likely the "H&S" reference is to the fact that it was on the footpath and a passer-by might trip over it, fall, injure themself and sue the council.

 

Jimbo44

 

Thanks Jimbo, but after 5 years of doing this and they have said nothing?????

 

Honestly, if these Council Idiots want a war they have chosen the wrong person to start one with

[Jimbo44]

Take your point, Tinkerbelle! I guess the old saying, "there's one born every minute", applies here, albeit changed slightly to "there's a jobsworth born every minute"!!

 

With the upsurge recently in litigation against local councils I guess lots are getting very "hot" on the old H&S thingies.

 

Fight the good fight!!!

 

 

Jimbo44

[blacksheep1979]

Let them take you to court as Mr - should be instant dissmisal.

[buzby]

They may have enacted rules that prohibit kerbside rubbish being placed on the footpath at anytime other than 3 hours before scheduled collection. This might have happened in your area. From what I recall, they don't need to take you to court either.

[Tinkerbelle]

Ok, so the lady has called me back.

 

Basically she said that it could have been that the rubbish was left out at a time when it shouldn't have been, she doesn't know. She said that maybe the inspector spotted it when he was doing his rounds. Lots of "maybe" and lots of "could be"...no definite facts:mad:

 

She assumed that I was going to appeal and said that I should get the appeal in as soon as possible as they have to respond within 7 days. I explained to her about having lived her for 5 years, and she said put all that down in the appeal.

 

When I asked her about whether or not I should pay this fine, she said it was up to me, and that the sooner I get my appeal in the better, because if their response came after the 14 days and it was not a positive response then I would end up having to pay £75.

 

And as for this nonsense about time of day and what day, this is all news to me. I have never been told that I need to leave rubbish out on a certain day or time for that matter

 

Going off to write my scathing response to them now.

[Movingon]

Again - let them take you to court for the £75. I would absolutely not pay it under any circumstances unless ordered to do so by a Court. Remember the Bill of Rights? A fine can only be imposed by a court, and only as a punishment for a criminal offence for which you have been convicted.

[Tinkerbelle]

Again - let them take you to court for the £75. I would absolutely not pay it under any circumstances unless ordered to do so by a Court. Remember the Bill of Rights? A fine can only be imposed by a court, and only as a punishment for a criminal offence for which you have been convicted.

 

Have no intention of paying

 

Is it worth mentioning in the letter that if they don't throw out the fine I will make an official complaint against them?

[Movingon]

Not really - they don't respond to threats. If it comes to that, just do it.

[buzby]

You might not have heard of the 'time of day' rule, but that unfortunately doesn;t excuse you IF the council has enacted rules for the affected street(s) - and as we all know, ignorance of same is not a defence. Similarly, if identified as a flytipper unter the relevant act(s), there's no need for them to take you to court - if the fine is not paid or disputed, it is passed directly to Bailiffs. The only time it will come to court is to enforce payment, and they will not enter into the original dispute. I'd be careful - making an 'official complaint' won't mean squat if they have the powers enacted for the street, you need to find this out first.

[Tinkerbelle]

The "Appeal" has now been faxed and will be posted on my way home from work.

 

The council can't possibly in their right minds expect me to know of a "Policy Change" if I or anyone else for that matter have never been told about it!

[buzby]

Ah - they do this by placing a 'Public Notice' in a newspaper you never read, and also on a few street lampposts where the sign is so high, a vertigo-suffering pigeon would be hard pressed to spot it (!). You might also find the council's website boasting about the policy in their effort to 'clean up the town'. The bottom line remaiuns the same, they'll get away with saying it's not their fault you weren't aware.

[reidnet]

This morning I received a hand delivered notice from my local Council accusing me of flytipping. It was addressed to a Mr and the last time I checked I was definitely female.

 

According to their notice on 12/10/06 at 15:30hrs I had "placed domestic waste on the footway in XXX XXXXXXXXXXX Road"

 

It gave me the option to pay £50 within 14 days or £75 within 21 days.

 

Now........I have been living at my property for 5 years. It is a converted flat above an office on a parade. We don't have wheelie bins. We don't have recycle bins. For the past 5 years I, like everyone else have placed our rubbish by the lamppost on the pavement.

 

So I would like to know what the hell are they on? Considering I had been out of the country until late Monday evening of last week, I'd like to know what on earth I could have accumulated over 2 and a half days that "posed a health and safety problem". I haven't been on a mega shopping spree. In fact I don't even recall putting any rubbish out last week Thu, and if I did it would have been the same type of black bin liner that I have been putting out for the past 5 years.

 

As soon as I got into work this morning I called them up and asked them to explain to me what the hell this was all about, but the telephone operator said that someone would call me back. She had better hope and pray that by the time she calls back I have calmed down otherwise she will have wished she stayed in bed this morning

 

****ed off is an understatement.

 

:o Was that you on Rogue Traders last Night then Tinkerbelle..They were on about fly tippers last night ..lol

[Movingon]

You might not have heard of the 'time of day' rule, but that unfortunately doesn;t excuse you IF the council has enacted rules for the affected street(s) - and as we all know, ignorance of same is not a defence. Similarly, if identified as a flytipper unter the relevant act(s), there's no need for them to take you to court - if the fine is not paid or disputed, it is passed directly to Bailiffs. The only time it will come to court is to enforce payment, and they will not enter into the original dispute. I'd be careful - making an 'official complaint' won't mean squat if they have the powers enacted for the street, you need to find this out first.

 

However the Law very clearly states that a Fine can only be imposed by a Court of Law following due process and after finding a Defendant guilty of a criminal offence. See the Bill of Rights Act 1689.

[buzby]

However the Law very clearly states that a Fine can only be imposed by a Court of Law following due process and after finding a Defendant guilty of a criminal offence. See the Bill of Rights Act 1689.

 

IT'S CIVIL OFFENCE! It is a civil penalty. No court action is required. Littering and their attendant practices were de-criminalised before parking. As to the Bill of Rights, there are people carted off to secure institutions to citing this in support of some misguided belief in 'what's right is right'.

 

Any council can have deemed to have servied notice on the populace by following the perviously advised notification procedures. If you don't believe it - leave a plastic bag out in Camden with some personal details, and you can experience it yourself first hand - Bill of Rights, or not.

[Movingon]

The fact that civil offences are now attracting penalties is simply the fact that the government are IGNORING the Bill of Rights Act 1689. The Act is VERY CLEAR. Unless an Act of Parliament specifically provides for a penalty, notwithstanding the CRA, then it is an unlawful penalty. The Decriminalisation of Parking has lead to unlawful penalties too... which are being challenged as we speak. (See the "Your parking ticket may be unlawful" thread).

 

The simple fact remains that penalties are unlawful unless you are convicted of a criminal offence; the Bill of Rights Act may be old and covered in cobwebs mate BUT IT'S STILL LAW.

[Movingon]

It's quite clear as I said...

 

And thereupon the said Lords Spiritual and Temporal and Commons, pursuant to their respective letters and elections, being now assembled in a full and free representative of this nation, taking into their most serious consideration the best means for attaining the ends aforesaid, do in the first place (as their ancestors in like case have usually done) for the vindicating and asserting their ancient rights and liberties declare:

• That the pretended power of suspending the laws or the execution of laws by regal authority without consent of Parliament is illegal;
  
• That the pretended power of dispensing with laws or the execution of laws by regal authority, as it hath been assumed and exercised of late, is illegal;
  
• That the commission for erecting the late Court of Commissioners for Ecclesiastical Causes, and all other commissions and courts of like nature, are illegal and pernicious;
  
• That levying money for or to the use of the Crown by pretence of prerogative, without grant of Parliament, for longer time, or in other manner than the same is or shall be granted, is illegal;
  
• That it is the right of the subjects to petition the king, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitioning are illegal;
  
• That the raising or keeping a standing army within the kingdom in time of peace, unless it be with consent of Parliament, is against law;
  
• That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law;
  
• That election of members of Parliament ought to be free;
  
• That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament;
  
• That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted;
  
• That jurors ought to be duly impanelled and returned, and jurors which pass upon men in trials for high treason ought to be freeholders;
  
• That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void;
  
• And that for redress of all grievances, and for the amending, strengthening and preserving of the laws, Parliaments ought to be held frequently.

[Tinkerbelle]

This may not relate the the actual contents of your rubbish bag. I think it more likely the "H&S" reference is to the fact that it was on the footpath and a passer-by might trip over it, fall, injure themself and sue the council.

 

 

Jimbo44

 

They'd need to walk into the lamppost first

[Tinkerbelle]

Also just for the record, the pink sheet of A5 paper says:

 

Offence of Leaving Litter

Notice of opportunity to pay a Fixed Penalty

The environmental Protection Act (EPA) 1990, Section 88

(as ammended by the Cleaner Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 (CNEA), Section 19)

 

Having never in my 39 years ever received a "fine" I assume that is what is means?

[Movingon]

Ahh. My bad.

 

The EPA 1990 specifically provides for Fixed Penalties. You've appealed already, that's fine; you now need to find out from the Council what alternative measures they have put in place for refuse disposal at your address... they have a civil duty to remove refuse from properties.