work 12 hours a night but when on holiday only get paid 8 hours

[stuggling]

Last year my partner touped to a new security firm and was paid 12hours for each day on holiday, but there current guards only get paid 8 hours.

my partner and the other guards who were touped were told in august their rate of holiday pay goes down to 8 instead of 12, i have told them its not right as they work 12 hour shifts so should get paid 12 hours for each holiday

 

Am i right or jumping the gun? ,:-S

[PenaltiesGalore]

Hello stuggling,

Under TUPE the new employer should honour the previous terms and agreements but TUPE only lasts for as long as the new employer wants it to last!

They can and some threaten to cut jobs as soon as they take over and get the employees to sign new contracts and agreements!

Did your partner sign any paperwork agreeing to any changes?

[stuggling]

No only to get paid weekly instead of monthly, he never signed anything but surely if you work 12 hours you should get 12 hours pay on holiday?

[PenaltiesGalore]

If a lot of people were TUPE'd there is likely to be a 'collective agreement' on the terms and conditions. Has your partner asked questions of the employer? What was their response?

 

Unfortunately, TUPE is as long as it is short. Some employers I have dealt with take over companies then set about changing TUPE due to 'business and economic' reasons within days.

 

What does your partners contract say?

 

Are you sure just a variation of pay date was signed and not other things as well?

[stuggling]

Questioned and just told all staff get paid this way, and positive he not signed anything but the different pay day to weekly,

 

contracts with orginal company states 12 hour shifts and 28 paid holidays a year,

[PenaltiesGalore]

I would advise lodging a group grievance/complaint so the employer sits up and takes notice that they are dealing with a group of people rather than one single person.

 

I would also point out for their benefit what the contract states.

 

Are they members of a union?

[postggj]

their seems to be a word missing in these posts

 

"harmonisation" of contracts under TUPE

[Emmzzi]

what exactly does the contract with new company say?

[PenaltiesGalore]

Hello squaddie,

 

I have dealt with companies where there is a marked disparity in hours and pay but the employees that have been 'taken over' have not signed any new contracts or variations so their pay should not be cut without their agreement.

 

I would be asking the company why they have chosen to cut pay without any consultation

[postggj]

A crucial aspect of the protection afforded by TUPE is that employees transfer on their existing employment terms. TUPE places strict limits on post-transfer contract change and specifically addresses when such variations can and cannot occur:

• Where the reason for changed terms is the transfer itself, TUPE makes such changes void.
  
• Where the reason is connected with the transfer but is also an economic, technical or organisational (ETO) reason entailing changes to the workforce, TUPE provides that such changes are effective if agreed.
  
• Agreed variations that are unconnected with the transfer are also effective.
  

An employer aiming to harmonise terms after a TUPE transfer faces an uphill struggle. The consequent contractual changes will be connected with the transfer and are unlikely to fall into the ETO reason category. As such, strictly, straightforward post-transfer harmonisation is not possible. In particular, note that employees cannot contract out of the protection of TUPE and so even an employee who agrees to post-transfer contractual change can subsequently change their mind and seek to rely on their previous employment terms such as, for example, entitlement to an enhanced redundancy payment.

 

Leaving as much time as possible between the transfer and the changes to avoid the suggestion that they are connected (although the mere passage of time itself will not prevent the change from being connected with the transfer). Because the reason for the change is the key factor, there is no particular amount of time after a transfer that will enable an employer to safely introduce changes. Even a two-year delay between transfer and the change was found to be insufficient to break the link between the transfer and the variation in one case.

[stuggling]

It there normal holiday rate of pay for all staff they have, not part of a union as company not fans of them it easy to be pushed out of the security industry.

 

Nit signed nothing to agree to new terms of there employment they tried to get the staff to but they all refused after I went to acas who told them they could lose hours and pay.

 

They don't even get proper pay each week. Say my partner works 60 hours they pay 36 hours and rest in expenses!!! I've told my partner to loom else were I just don't trust them

[PenaltiesGalore]

Maybe Stuggling can clarify if the changes outlined were agreed.

 

I wonder if prior to the transfer the new employer did outline the changes.

 

How many employees were transferred and are they all affected?

 

The hours worked and being paid as 'expenses' shows they might be avoiding the working time directive!!

[stuggling]

No idea, but tax man said it legal :-S, his tupe booklet he got of them was like a application form, asking for previous employers and education. Had a section for bank details and then a bit in middle that says I herby agree to all xxxxxx terms and conditions of employment BUT I told my partner not to sign that and take it out of booklet! And we still have that sheet

 

They were told their hours and pay would not change and their site would remain the same their were 10 guards that they took over 2 left and 1 has been sacked

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Is what you mentioned above the only paperwork your OH has had please?

 

My best, HB

[PenaltiesGalore]

You might be right to say look elsewhere.

 

Most employees will sign their rights away for fear of being made redundant/jobless, those that don't sign are effectively classed as trouble makers and divide and rule will come into play.

 

One way or another they will manage out those with preferential terms and conditions

[PenaltiesGalore]

Not sure if I inadvertently clicked on report a post there with this touchscreen : (

[postggj]

QUOTE

 

They don't even get proper pay each week. Say my partner works 60 hours they pay 36 hours and rest in expenses!!! I've told my partner to loom else were I just don't trust them

 

By paying the extra hours as an expenses seems to me they are trying to get around the working time directive, even if the employee has "opted out"

 

i believe the security industry is exempt from the working time directive but that is for high value loads and drivers, but do not quote me on that

 

i would think a call to HMRC would be in order for clarification

[stuggling]

I know this firm will they are known for this, the only items of paperwork or anything of the new firm as an tupe booklet, containing an application form, information as to who they are and what date they tupe over and the name of his old firm, a sheet asking for them to agree to the new terms and conditions of employment. We went to a union rep we know personally who advised we speak to ACAS and his old firm as the time of the tupe who told all the staff not to sign that sheet and the new firm just said oops it just standard in all our tupe packs.

 

Are they allowed to reduce the holiday pay though, even though they all would have worked 12 hours if they were not on holiday.

[stuggling]

we spoke to the HMRC who and i quote said "oh we have had several people from the same firm ring in regards to this but it all seems above board" we then asked as even though it only a few pounds a week in tax not being paid but that all adds up and i wonder if they gonna chase my OH for it, i keep all his wages slips

[postggj]

did the trade union not represent the members prior to the TUPE take over

[stuggling]

it was a personal favour they dont work in the security trade, it was for advice only security firms are not mad on trade unions they tend to force staff to quit ore get sacked as it easy to get new staff the govenment pay for the badges and training so easy to get new staff

[mariefab]

Do you still have his original contract?

If so, can you please type here exactly what it says about holidays?

[stuggling]

With orginal firm it states holidays are 28 days a year and can not be taken from 14 December to. 04 January because this is when clients need 24/7 guards on site.

Holidays are paid normal and can mot be taken in the fist 3 months of. Employment

[biggeorge]

Hi Struggling, your comment on post 21: govenment pay for the badges and training

 

Please please let me know where you get this from, I left the security industry before the SIA came out but have struggled since

to get funding to pay for the License, No one I have spoken to can help with funding.

 

George

[stuggling]

you need to go the job centre and they put you on a training course most colleges do this, once done you dont get the badge straigt away you find employment and tell your employer that you done the training and the job centre will pay for the badge and then go back job centre with letter of acceptance and they pay for the badge, this is only available in certain areas. When my partner done it we paid ourselfs but it not cheap now it £245 roughly for the badge make sure you get a door supervisor one that the one most employers want.