Disciplinary - Gross Misconduct

[Anonn]

Actually just received invite to disciplinary.

[Emmzzi]

Ok. You need to stop focussing on "who grassed you" and work on heart felt apology.

 

I would also busy myself with getting my CV in order.

 

IF they dismiss - and they may not - ask how they feel about a reference confirming dates of employment only as standard.

 

If they do not dismiss and you need to go back = we will cross that one, and how you will handle any stress - then. Put it aside for now.

 

There may be a fabulous job out there for you, but you need to get applying to get it. Have you been to temp agencies yet? A couple of decent temp contracts can very quickly cover the bases of 2 good last references You just need a shiny CV and a wee bit of luck.

[Anonn]

Thank you.

 

I think I know who it was who spied. I just wanted the company to be aware that these messages weren't stumbled upon, that someone sought them out.

 

In the notes I have received from the meeting, I don't agree with what has been recored. It's just the wording of it but I don't agree. How do I handle that?

 

Already started working on my CV. Should have it finished today.

 

Do you think I should call citizens advice? Will they help?

[Anonn]

Also, I thought I did apologise throughout the meeting, though it doesn't seem to be recorded in the notes. The investigating staff member has put in their notes that I "demonstrated a level of remorse". I was crying that much maybe I should try and keep the tears in and concentrate on saying sorry.

 

No idea how to deal with this.

[Emmzzi]

You send the notes back with your amendments to be noted. Stick to big ticket items, don't pick over the bones.

 

Include any expansion you would like on "level of remorse" eg any actual words you used that you would like included. You need to be clear it is "I am sorry I did it and now I see why it was bad" as opposed to "I am sorry I got caught."

 

I'm not sure CAB will be able to tell you anything different but by all means book in to see them. I'd never say no!

[Anonn]

Hi all,

 

I am to attend a disciplinary for gross misconduct and one of the allegations against me is that I have used social networking sites in work time.

 

I wasn't fully aware of the communication policy (stupid, I know) and I believed it was being reviewed because of comments made from senior management that with the current wording everyone would be in breach. Also, the atmosphere within my company is so relaxed and a lot of staff members use social networking sites in work time - and not just on their phones but using company computer systems. I have never been spoken to regarding the use of my phone in the 18 months I've worked there and it has never impacted my work.

 

I have over 100 screenshots that show other staff members using social networking sites on work time, would it be unreasonable to provide these as evidence that have not been alone in breaching the policy?

 

I also have evidence of emails I have sent and received outside of my normal working hours. I thought that perhaps these would show that although they may be able to say that I have wasted a few minutes here and there, that I have also worked above and beyond my normal working hours.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[SNALF]

Hi Anonn. That issue in itself cannot be claimed as gross misconduct. Many employers misunderstand this. Gross misconduct is only applicable when the employee has done something so outrageous or serious that it goes through the heart of the contract and shatters it. It is for instances when the employer could not possible be expected to continue to employ the person. Setting precedents is really important in gross misconduct and to allow a practice to continue and then suddenly claim it is GM is not acceptable. However, you say that this is one of the issues. Can you give us an idea what the others are?

[SNALF]

Also, are you suspended?

[Anonn]

Hi EmployLaw,

 

I am suspended, yes.

 

The other allegation relates also to social networking sites and the use of abusive, threatening and/or offensive language. The letter also states that the company feel that the duty of care has been breached and that the alleged misconduct was so incompatible with the employee's duties and responsibilities that continued presence within the company is insupportable.

 

The relates to comments made on a social networking site, on an account I believed was anonymous. The account did not hold my full name, never mentioned the company nor any of my work colleagues. This account was meant to be private and personal - though I am now aware that this is very rarely the case when it comes to the internet and in hindsight I am aware I was misguided and naive.

 

Some of the comments were abusive/offensive and used profanity. However, they were meant to be tongue in cheek and almost a parody. I understand that my employer does not see it this way and seeing the comments laid out was quite horrifying and embarrassing.

 

I had went to great lengths to ensure the account could not be accessed from anyone from my "real life". I had blocked colleagues and company accounts from accessing my profile and I also ensured I did not make a direct reference by name to anyone from my real life.

The account was deleted as soon as I learnt of the allegations against me.

 

From the evidence the company provided me - screenshots - it is apparent that someone within the company made an alias account. I know this because the email (name.name@emaildotcom) was shown on a number of screenshots, and you could also clearly see the company system on one of the tabs. Yet the name in the email is of no one linked with the company. I'm not sure if this has any effect on anything, but it has made me feel singled out and spied on.

I also think I may be aware who took the screenshots because of other things present on the page.

 

Before Christmas HR sent out a reminder about the communication policy and the use of social network sites. This was the same day the screenshots are dated. 2 days after the email was sent out I went to HR to gain some clarification re: the policy and my use of social networking. I was told directly that the email was not sent out for me, and I was also told that as long as my profile was not searchable with my name and the companies, if I did not mention the company or my colleagues direct then I had nothing to worry about. gain, I don't know if this gives me any fight within the disciplinary, but I do feel I tried to take responsibility and was advised that I was not breaching the policy.

 

I do believe that the company have already decided the outcome and that either way I will be managed out of the business. I do think that they will fire me before they even have to manage me out of the business. Within the last 12 months there have been a number of staff members who have went on "extended leave" and have not returned once their face no longer fits, but also, to be fair, due to disciplinaries.

 

I am unsure how to approach the meeting. Of course I am remorseful - I love my job and I am devastated that I may have caused embarrassment to the company and to myself - but I am also apprehensive about attending and being remorseful only and not having any kind of fight, because I do believe they will just get rid of me.

 

I'm really stuck and not sure what to do.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I've merged your related threads because it normally helps the people trying to advise you.

 

My best, HB

[Anonn]

Excellent, thank you.

[SNALF]

Hello Anonn. In your position, I would review the policy in great detail and see what the actual breach is. If the policy is only breached on postings which could bring the company into disrepute, go into the meeting with the defence that the content of the posts and threads shouldn't matter as they are private and anonymous and not directed at the company, service users or colleagues. They can only claim injury to reputation if reputation was injured or could have been. There is no link. The breach therefore is the posting within works time using works systems, not what was actually posted. Then your defence is that despite the policy being in place, it was widely practiced by all to use works systems to access and post on the internet so you are being singled out and treated unfairly due to inconsistent application of the policy. If you will be disciplined, all should be disciplined. It would help greatly if you provide evidence of others doing the same. Steer the hearing chairperson away from the content and more to the breach of policy. It would be really helpful if you could bullet-point the policy details here in brief so that I can see what the actual 'offence' is.

[Anonn]

Hi EmployLaw,

 

I had the disciplinary meeting yesterday. I took a large amount of evidence with me, showing other members of staff using social media in work time, and also using profanity and language that was offensive and that could embarrass or breach the trust/confidence of the company. I stated that my evidence was not brought to get anyone else into trouble, only to show that the policies are not clear enough, or understood and that if I had breached them, I was not alone.

 

During the meeting I tried to establish what it was exactly that they had the problem with - that they couldn't get passed, that made my employment there now insupportable. I was told it wasn't that I had used social media in work time, that happens they said and they have been very relaxed, It didn't even appear to be some of the more offensive things I had said. They said it was because of the posts were I had referred to "my boss" and "my staff". Though I must point out that I did not name them, me or the company at any time. I was in no way linked to the company or my colleagues, or indeed my real life.

 

I have a query though. I believe my employers have lied about how they found my account and how they gained the screenshots. That I perhaps was not shown all of the evidence surrounding their case against me. Where do I stand with this?

[Emmzzi]

The question is not how you got caught. It is whether or not you did it.

 

Have you had the result of the dsicplinary yet?

[Anonn]

So that I was lied to in the meeting and that I don't believe an audit was carried out - an audit that they are saying linked me to their corporate account and therefore may damage the company - doesn't matter?

 

I haven't had the result yet but it's clear I will be dismissed. I've had some legal advice (before the meeting) who agreed they would dismiss me and that I may have a chance for unfair dismissal.

 

I would prefer not to get dismissed and perhaps come to a compromise agreement (is that correct?). I know the company have done this on 3 other occasions within the last 18 months and dismissed one.

 

In the meeting yesterday they got very flustered when I questioned the finer details (as instructed legally and by acas).

In addition it appears I was monitored but there is nothing in any of the policies that state that that may occur.

 

I'm sorry if I appear to be grasping at straws but I have been lied to, or at least misled and I'm going to lose my job while others will only get a slapped wrist.

[SNALF]

I really don't think they have a case for gross misconduct here Anonn, not that this will stop them believing that they have and taking the wrong action. As hard as it is, don't lose heart until you have the outcome. Are they taking legal advice? You mentioned a HR org going in to see them, is this an outside legal adviser?

[Anonn]

The company isn't very big and so they work with an outside HR org, yes. They did state yesterday that they sought legal advice - or words to that affect, though I'm not convinced.

 

I just wondered if I should approach them and advise them that I am aware of some details they did not provide in the meeting, that I feel I have been unfairly targeted, or wait until the actual meeting.

 

I have discovered that the 3rd party they claim they instructed to audit traffic to/from one of their social media accounts, is owned/ran by the husband of the colleague I suspect has it in for me (office politics, she used to be my boss, I'm now doing her job). And I believe that the company he owns does not/cannot do the things my employer stated in the meeting yesterday.

 

Oh, it's just so much adds up now - in a completely different way to how my employers tried to claim yesterday - and I feel that they are just trying to get rid of me, while others will get off with it.

[SNALF]

Ok. If they are taking legal advice, they may be warned off dismissal as they don't have strong grounds for GM, depends who's advising them though. I understand your comments about how difficult it would be to go back, but just think that if somebody has purposely set out to get you dismissed and they fail, in your shoes I'd go back with great flare! Talk about being one up! If they dismiss, update here as soon as possible as you will likely only have 5 to 7 days to appeal and you need to specify your grounds to appeal.

[Emmzzi]

What is your ideal (realistic) outcome that you want to get to?

[Anonn]

What is your ideal (realistic) outcome that you want to get to?

 

Clean reference mainly and money to get by? I'm scared of the impact being dismissed for gross misconduct will have on future employment.

[Emmzzi]

then you probably want to avoid an ET. It'll keep you hanging on a goood while especially with all the delaying tactics around provision of data.

 

I would probably have a conversation with HR at appeal stage if it gets that far.

[caro]

So that I was lied to in the meeting and that I don't believe an audit was carried out - an audit that they are saying linked me to their corporate account and therefore may damage the company - doesn't matter?

 

I haven't had the result yet but it's clear I will be dismissed. I've had some legal advice (before the meeting) who agreed they would dismiss me and that I may have a chance for unfair dismissal.

 

I would prefer not to get dismissed and perhaps come to a compromise agreement (is that correct?). I know the company have done this on 3 other occasions within the last 18 months and dismissed one.

 

In the meeting yesterday they got very flustered when I questioned the finer details (as instructed legally and by acas).

In addition it appears I was monitored but there is nothing in any of the policies that state that that may occur.

 

I'm sorry if I appear to be grasping at straws but I have been lied to, or at least misled and I'm going to lose my job while others will only get a slapped wrist.

 

The problem is you say it was all anonymous, no names etc, but the fact is if the company could identify you and themselves, then maybe they can justifiably believe others could too.

 

I agree procedure, lack of clarity in the procedure, and possibly the company not properly enforcing it, so making it unclear what is and isn't acceptable may be your best bets. Presumably you'll be able to appeal if you can find grounds?

[Anonn]

Hi Emmzzi,

 

Should I mention coming to some kind of mutual agreement?

 

I just don't know what to do for the best anymore.

[Anonn]

The problem is you say it was all anonymous, no names etc, but the fact is if the company could identify you and themselves, then maybe they can justifiably believe others could too.

 

I agree procedure, lack of clarity in the procedure, and possibly the company not properly enforcing it, so making it unclear what is and isn't acceptable may be your best bets. Presumably you'll be able to appeal if you can find grounds?

 

I understand your first point. It's so frustrating. They said similar and said that the reason they're looking at it so unfavourably is what if a staff member seen it? But I had sought clarification from HR and was advised I wasn't breaching any policies so I truly believed it was ok - how stupid and naive was I?! I could kick myself. If it was a huge company with a hardline stance about things then I would expect nothing less, but there is little consistency in the way they deal with things.

 

It's gone too far now and I'm out (tbc) so I suppose I just need to get on with it and see if I have serious grounds for appeal/can come to an agreement.

[SNALF]

Sorry if you've already posted this somewhere in the thread Anonn but to save me squinting back through the posts, how long have you been employed?