From 3/12/12, ESA WRAG claimants can be mandated to the Work Programme...

[worried33]

Are there any figures for how many claimants are actually offered a full time, permanent position following one of these placements? Preferably figures stating how many are still in said employment after 6 months?

 

the work programme has reported very low figures so very few are getting paid employment out of it. under 5%.

[LaughingGirl]

Yes, and they've got no figures for people still employed after 6 months either do they?

 

Basically, I have no difficulty imagining that even when people are taken on 'permanently', they'll be out on their ear as soon as their probationary period is over so the next batch of slave labour can be rolled in.

 

Since there's no entitlement to tribunal until you've been in two years permanent employment, employers have nothing to lose by doing this. There's no right to reply for the employee.

[down'n'out]

................. the weird logic of it all..

 

That is what I am currently struggling with.

[livvyp]

What will they do if you are too sick to report in for the work you have been mandated to? I had a job that was perfect for me, if not my dream job. I had to leave it, in these awful frightening times of recession, with many debts to pay. Why do they think I will be able to go to a job they find for me when I couldn't even keep on a job down the road from me? I was off sick with pain, I'm not going to do another job while in the same pain - I won't be able to, if I did, I'd be back at my old job.

[osdset]

What will they do if you are too sick to report in for the work you have been mandated to? I had a job that was perfect for me, if not my dream job. I had to leave it, in these awful frightening times of recession, with many debts to pay. Why do they think I will be able to go to a job they find for me when I couldn't even keep on a job down the road from me? I was off sick with pain, I'm not going to do another job while in the same pain - I won't be able to, if I did, I'd be back at my old job.

 

Good question, and all the more appropriate as being on WRAG is supposed to mean that you have limited capability, it's a bit too early in the game for case histories to come to light, no doubt we will find out what happens soon enough.

[Nystagmite]

I do wonder how all this legal:

For people on ESA, IB and IS due to incapacity, you can do permitted work. I am sure the minimum wage applies here. Why doesn't it apply when it comes to these work placements? Why should they be any different?

[osdset]

Well I for one won't be signing any data waivers come the time, I fully intend to make life as awkward as possible for the pimps, one interesting point is just how are they going to get their blood money out of this? ESA claimants cannot be compelled to look for or take employment so the only way they would get the full £13,000 would be to persuade someone to take a job.

Unpaid placements won't gain the pimps anything, so apart from gleaning a few bob out of sending us on pointless courses they are on a hiding to nothing.

[down'n'out]

ESA claimants cannot be compelled to look for or take employment so the only way they would get the full £13,000 would be to persuade someone to take a job.

 

Look for/apply for jobs or they send you on MWA 30+ hour pw for the rest of your life.

[zellka]

I was called for a work focussed interview yesterday and was told by the advisor that they now had to turn all ESA WRAG claimants with prognosis 12 months or less to the Work Program. She said I was clearly unfit to do that and all that she could suggest was to appeal (even Though its not over the time limit) and ask to be put into support group. I am worried sick as the Atos assessment has now meant I will not get my DLA higher rate mobility which I do need and qualify for. I have had this problem for 6 years after an accident breaking my back. Its not going to get better so where the 12 months prognosis comes from i would love to know

[estellyn]

I wonder, does anyone know if there is scope to appeal the prognosis time? I haven't seen anything in the regs, but maybe someone else has.

[antone]

I wonder, does anyone know if there is scope to appeal the prognosis time? I haven't seen anything in the regs, but maybe someone else has.

 

I suppose that would hinge on whether it's part of an outcome decision or an SoS decision. An interesting question and I don't know the answer.

[RaeUK]

Antone, could you say that again in layman's terms? I'm interested as, should I ever get off the assessment rate, I'd be interested to see what prognosis they give for an incurable disease ...

[antone]

Antone, could you say that again in layman's terms? I'm interested as, should I ever get off the assessment rate, I'd be interested to see what prognosis they give for an incurable disease ...

 

Heh, sorry for the jargon, old habits die hard and all that.

 

There are various types of decision that DWP staff make in the course of processing a benefit claim. Two of the main ones are Outcome Decisions and Secretary of State Decisions (that is, decisions made "on behalf of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions").

 

Outcome decisions are things like "is the person entitled to ESA?", "should this person be in the WRAG or SG?", "should this person be sanctioned for failing to apply for a matched vacancy?" and so on. The key thing about Outcome Decisions is that they can be appealed to the tribunal if the claimant disagrees with said decision.

 

On the other hand, SoS decisions are things like "can ESA be paid to this person despite a 15 day gap in medical evidence?" Another SoS decision is the length of time before the WCA process starts again following a successful award of ESA. While claimants can ask the DM to reconsider these decisions, there is no right of appeal to the tribunal.

 

So with regard to prognosis for Work Programme purposes, the question is which type of decision is it? I don't know the answer, unforunately.

[RaeUK]

Brilliant, thanks so much, even I can understand that.

[estellyn]

Heh, sorry for the jargon, old habits die hard and all that.

 

There are various types of decision that DWP staff make in the course of processing a benefit claim. Two of the main ones are Outcome Decisions and Secretary of State Decisions (that is, decisions made "on behalf of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions").

 

Outcome decisions are things like "is the person entitled to ESA?", "should this person be in the WRAG or SG?", "should this person be sanctioned for failing to apply for a matched vacancy?" and so on. The key thing about Outcome Decisions is that they can be appealed to the tribunal if the claimant disagrees with said decision.

 

On the other hand, SoS decisions are things like "can ESA be paid to this person despite a 15 day gap in medical evidence?" Another SoS decision is the length of time before the WCA process starts again following a successful award of ESA. While claimants can ask the DM to reconsider these decisions, there is no right of appeal to the tribunal.

 

So with regard to prognosis for Work Programme purposes, the question is which type of decision is it? I don't know the answer, unforunately.

 

No me neither, and a prognosis decision now makes a huge impact on a WRAG claimant.

[speedfreek]

I wonder, does anyone know if there is scope to appeal the prognosis time? I haven't seen anything in the regs, but maybe someone else has.

 

No as it's a made up figure based on their manuals.

 

You can chuck in a late appeal for upto 13 months since the decision (as you already know) that halts WP referral or argue with a JCP Disability Advisor for Work Choice

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-stakeholder-information-pack.pdf

 

worth a read as basically you have to stop the WP referral or you are conscripted for 104 weeks whatever happens.

 

Posts 1-5 here explains prognosis from the ATOS HCP manual http://ouchtoo.org/index.php?topic=4142.0

 

May eb worht finding out what exactly is the WPPs minumum service offer is?

 

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/esawork.doc

 

Participants who join a programme delivering personalised support have a right to understand what kind of support they can expect to receive. Service providers were required as part of their contract bids to set out the range of support they would offer, including their minimum service offer that would be available to all participants.

 

These service offers were assessed as part of the contracting process, and providers will be held to these as part of the programme’s performance management arrangements. Minimum service offers are communicated to participants when they are referred to the programme, and are published on the Department for Work and Pensions website, to help increase service transparency and accountability.

[Lilly_Monroe]

Does what your advisor writes and suggest go any way towards helping you.

Mine has always been very supportive and never pushed me (I am in the WRAG group).

I answer all her questions, look at what she suggests each time - but she never makes me do anything I am not comfortable with.

As she has seen me more times that anyone outside my GP I was wondering if her comments make any difference.

[RaeUK]

Thanks, speedfreek, the ouchtoo posts made very interesting reading.

[**Margaret**]

: Decisions decisions:

 

No more idea than anyone else as to whether a prognosis can be used to argue about mandatory activities on the work programme but I do have an explanation for why we don't know;

 

Like the 2011 employment n support descriptors, not to mention the reassessment of incapacity benefit claimants, the legislation was ill thought out, badly drafted and rushed cos Duncan-Smith, Grayling et al couldn't wait to persecute the disabled.

 

Starting during June 11, it took us four months to convince Jobcentreplus that Starryeyes remained eligible for income support while she appealed a personal capability assessment. In the absence of any legislative guidance every 'advisor' tried to insist that she claimed employment n support or jobseekers.

 

For the same reasons, I doubt anyone at Caxton House has considered the implications of non medically trained decision makers altering review dates following upheld appeals either.

 

Margaret.

Edited January 13, 2013 by **Margaret**

[joeski]

IDS has got a serious problem!

[Lilly_Monroe]

IDS has got a serious problem!

 

Does it warrant him receiving ESA:)

[Nystagmite]

Does it warrant him receiving ESA:)

 

Nope! He'll be found fit for work.

[kAPPS]

Nope! He'll be found fit for work.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if IDS was claiming DLA as an extra benefit

 

on top of his huge salary?