Sigma SPV1 Ltd court claim form for M & S store/credit card***Discontinued**

[cleo4patra]

Sent your letter and added a paragraph on requesting documentation under the pre-action protocol rules and also about being harrassed - asked why several other M & S clients have same documentation - received a letter back from Rockwell today - no longer dealing with it!!!:D:D

Sorry - this should be in my M & S thread!!! I used same letter for BOS though and await reply!!!

[saintly_1]

Thread moved and renamed

[cleo4patra]

thanks!!!

[cleo4patra]

Hello Cleo,

 

Please don't despair

 

I am in full agreement with Slick, these dca's really arn't going to state the truth, that they are really chancing their arm with this. They hope if they tell you enough you will fold.

 

They are harassing you on a unproven alleged debt and have to take responsibility for their actions.

 

Let them do their worse, I doubt very much it will be much.

 

Log all calls from them and file their correspondence in a harassment file.

 

Give them your wrath:D

Hi again - Rockwell closed files again and have now had letter from M & S in sisting enforceable and strongly advising we seek legal advice. I have previously asked for original be made available to me in the store but they completely ignored . HELP!!!!!!!

[beetle1234]

cleo4patra...you need to keep focussed on this and think about what YOU would do in their shoes...M&S (like many) have an unenforceable/non true copy case which no court in the land (especially now that the newspapers and media are all over the subject like a rash !) would even consider enforcing in their favour.

 

So what is left open to them to get you to pay ? Threaten court action ? Why do they not respond to your request for a copy of the "agreement" ? Because what they have sent IS what they rely on as the "agreement"! In my case with M&S you may find the following hard to believe but I can now tell you that the best thing to happen in my fight with them was when they issued writ against me in local court...whilst it was a shock at the time (and my first reaction was to think about paying them) with the help of these forums I decided to defend it..in reality doing so brought everything to a head and the inevitable happened.

 

On first day in court they folded and court found in my favour with debt written off AND deletion of all adverse credit they had posted in connection with this "debt".Trust me when I say this...they do NOT want these cases to be heard in court but the threat of going there is why most people will still pay up !

 

Now be honest and think about this....regardless of the fact they have no enforceable agreement if they issue 50 writs a month how many people will pay out of fear,naivety or even embarassment at possibly having to go to their local court over a perceived "debt" issue ? I bet the figure is probably 80% or more.

 

How will you react if this is the next step they take on their quest to frighten you into paying ? Have they issued default on this yet ? Are you wishing to save your credit rating or is this not a priority ? Are you trying to write it off or (in conjunction with your credit rating not being wrecked...even temporarily possibly) are you keen to pay them a % of the alleged debt ?

 

One thing I would strongly advise is that IF it goes the way mine went and you DO want to defend then make sure you have copies of ALL correspondence inc default notice and letters sent requesting cca and sar copies....also if you have not done so it is good to send them letter stating that what they have sent does not fulfill the requirements of a properly executed agreement and ask them again to send you the real one...we all know the real one does not exist but even in my case their writ continually said "the actual agreement would be produced for the court"

 

Well sorry but thats not how it works...they serve writ, you tell them you are defending, they send copy of their case to court and to you and you send copy of your defence to court and them...there are no white rabbits popping out of top hats...and what did they produce ?

 

The same silly little "application for credit" they had sent me months earlier ! Scare tactics that I will never fall for again...don't you fall for them either...keep focussed and things will become clearer and easier soon.

Edited October 19, 2009 by slick132
Put in paragraphs to make a useful post easier to read

[cleo4patra]

cleo4patra...you need to keep focussed on this and think about what YOU would do in their shoes...M&S (like many) have an unenforceable/non true copy case which no court in the land (especially now that the newspapers and media are all over the subject like a rash !) would even consider enforcing in their favour.So what is left open to them to get you to pay ? Threaten court action ? Why do they not respond to your request for a copy of the "agreement" ? Because what they have sent IS what they rely on as the "agreement"! In my case with M&S you may find the following hard to believe but I can now tell you that the best thing to happen in my fight with them was when they issued writ against me in local court...whilst it was a shock at the time (and my first reaction was to think about paying them) with the help of these forums I decided to defend it..in reality doing so brought everything to a head and the inevitable happened...on first day in court they folded and court found in my favour with debt written off AND deletion of all adverse credit they had posted in connection with this "debt".Trust me when I say this...they do NOT want these cases to be heard in court but the threat of going there is why most people will still pay up ! Now be honest and think about this....regardless of the fact they have no enforceable agreement if they issue 50 writs a month how many people will pay out of fear,naivety or even embarassment at possibly having to go to their local court over a perceived "debt" issue ? I bet the figure is probably 80% or more.How will you react if this is the next step they take on their quest to frighten you into paying ? Have they issued default on this yet ? Are you wishing to save your credit rating or is this not a priority ? Are you trying to write it off or (in conjunction with your credit rating not being wrecked...even temporarily possibly) are you keen to pay them a % of the alleged debt ? One thing I would strongly advise is that IF it goes the way mine went and you DO want to defend then make sure you have copies of ALL correspondence inc default notice and letters sent requesting cca and sar copies....also if you have not done so it is good to send them letter stating that what they have sent does not fulfill the requirements of a properly executed agreement and ask them again to send you the real one...we all know the real one does not exist but even in my case their writ continually said "the actual agreement would be produced for the court" well sorry but thats not how it works...they serve writ,you tell them you are defending,they send copy of their case to court and to you and you send copy of your defence to court and them...there are no white rabbits popping out of top hats...and what did they produce ? The same silly little "application for credit" they had sent me months earlier ! Scare tactics that I will never fall for again...don't you fall for them either...keep focussed and things will become clearer and easier soon.

Wow!!! what a reply. Thanks for the support

In answer to your queries - they did send a default (defective) as they didn't allow fourteen days after service - they then demanded the FULL balance in a two line letter which I take to be a termination.

 

They passed onto Rockwell who closed files, re-opened and when I wrotto them with the facts, closed again.

 

To be honest I am expecting them to take us to court. What I can't do - is believe that the documents they have sent us are a copy of our original - as I was contacted by another M & s client who had received the same (not just a generic document) but had same identifying marks as posted up on this thread and after that another |M & S cagger posted same - THEY CANNOT BE A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL (sorry I am shouting)

 

I am going to write AGAIN and ask them to make the original available to us and see what happens. As far as credit rating goes - we are going to be wanting to rent a house soon so I don't want any CCJ's but I am not going to be bullied either

[hellhasnofury]

Wow!!! what a reply. Thanks for the support

In answer to your queries - they did send a default (defective) as they didn't allow fourteen days after service - they then demanded the FULL balance in a two line letter which I take to be a termination.

 

They passed onto Rockwell who closed files, re-opened and when I wrotto them with the facts, closed again.

 

To be honest I am expecting them to take us to court. What I can't do - is believe that the documents they have sent us are a copy of our original - as I was contacted by another M & s client who had received the same (not just a generic document) but had same identifying marks as posted up on this thread and after that another |M & S cagger posted same - THEY CANNOT BE A COPY OF THE ORIGINAL (sorry I am shouting)

 

I am going to write AGAIN and ask them to make the original available to us and see what happens. As far as credit rating goes - we are going to be wanting to rent a house soon so I don't want any CCJ's but I am not going to be bullied either

 

Hello Cleo,

 

Yes that was an excellent response from Beetle, in a nutshell:D

 

M&S know but will try to mislead you into believing what they have stated. Even if you ask them to point out the legal aspects of their case, they are relying on, they will not:rolleyes:

 

Rockwell knew and that is why they retreated into the shadows:D

 

As I stated before, it is important to log any harassment calls from either M&S or any bully boy DCA's they pass this to. Be mindful that they may instruct another DCA or in time sell it on. M&S do not normally have the teeth to take you to court;)

 

This is the only course of action they can take, because they know this is the only ????original they have a microfiche copy:rolleyes: of a pre-contractual application form for a store card, not the credit card of a &more upgraded account, that they tricked us into paying for:-x

 

Keep you chin up, stand firm and do not falter:D

[ajs444]

Hi Cleo,

Currently still going through same procedure as you are but being chased by CD Collections to whom I have just sent "Account in Serious Dispute" letter.

The FOS said they could not comment on legality of "agreement" but was up to a court of law, which obviously M&S did not want to pursue and passed it on to DCA.

The victories by Beetle & Seriouslyfedup has given me a greater determination to beat these institutions and I await their reply with the knowledge that they are hitting their head of a brick wall!!!!

Stick in there and stuff them with the whole of CAG behind you.

[beetle1234]

Cleo...a defective DN is good to have in your armoury but keep it to yourself as they can quash it and reissue as and when they wish...do not worry about ccj...if this goes to court the world would have to stop revolving before they found in M&S favour (as long as you defend it that is !) Send them the letter and keep copy for file in case you need it.

 

ps.When we rented recently (having just sold our house) no credit check was necessary...landlords/property management companies were more interested in getting status report from our bank...one house we looked at stated they would do credit check but they were looking for £2k a month rent...go see local renting companies in your area and ask what they will need...always good to know in advance.

[beetle1234]

Just thinking out loud here but will be interested to know of anyone who receives/has received writ from M&S in last 3 months or so (after seriously fed up and my own cases were won) From a strategic point of view if I were in their shoes would I continue to take people to court who were clued up enough to ask for copy cca and send sar requests etc. ? Or would my approach be to take legal action against only those who are in arrears but clearly do not know their consumer rights? Stands to reason these people are more likely to pay before ever seeing the inside of a courtroom...don't you think ?

 

If they DO adopt the above approach we may see cases like Cleo and others being delayed followed by offers from lender to settle...others like MBNA for example seem to adopt the approach of trying hard to settle (normally for 30/35% of sum owed) before the threat of court action even comes up !

 

As an avid reader of most things consumer related it is an interesting time with courts finding in favour of defender in some cases (MBNA case in Newcastle a couple of weeks ago for example) but I believe nothing that can be relied upon nationally yet as setting a precedent as these have all been in minor local courts.I believe next month some of the "heavily advertising" Debt Management companies like Cartel and Credit Issues have some "non true copy" cases being heard that could change this though..lets hope so as this particular area seems to cover the majority of lenders "agreements" ? One thing is certain in my mind though...I don't hear of too many lenders rushing to take us through the courts at the moment...or am I wrong ?

[slick132]

Hi Beetle,

 

Don't want to hijack Cleo's thread with general discussions but..............

 

The bank's legal reps are always willing to threaten court action from the outset as that is enough to get some to pay.

 

They will then go on to issue court action (often very poorly prepared) and this will prompt some to pay or negotiate payments arrangements.

 

But when the legal reps get a decent well-prepared defence, they often drop the case like a hot potato.

 

Ultimately, it is down to preparation of your defence and having a decnt judge who is well-versed on CCA1974.

[hellhasnofury]

Just thinking out loud here but will be interested to know of anyone who receives/has received writ from M&S in last 3 months or so (after seriously fed up and my own cases were won) From a strategic point of view if I were in their shoes would I continue to take people to court who were clued up enough to ask for copy cca and send sar requests etc. ? Or would my approach be to take legal action against only those who are in arrears but clearly do not know their consumer rights? Stands to reason these people are more likely to pay before ever seeing the inside of a courtroom...don't you think ?

 

If they DO adopt the above approach we may see cases like Cleo and others being delayed followed by offers from lender to settle...others like MBNA for example seem to adopt the approach of trying hard to settle (normally for 30/35% of sum owed) before the threat of court action even comes up !

 

As an avid reader of most things consumer related it is an interesting time with courts finding in favour of defender in some cases (MBNA case in Newcastle a couple of weeks ago for example) but I believe nothing that can be relied upon nationally yet as setting a precedent as these have all been in minor local courts.I believe next month some of the "heavily advertising" Debt Management companies like Cartel and Credit Issues have some "non true copy" cases being heard that could change this though..lets hope so as this particular area seems to cover the majority of lenders "agreements" ? One thing is certain in my mind though...I don't hear of too many lenders rushing to take us through the courts at the moment...or am I wrong ?

 

Hiya Beetle,

 

Interesting point, I have been expecting a claim coming through for some considerable time, any time, keep checking the post but its not there. Best shut up before I tempt fate:D

 

I have received many threats, ignored them and waited;)

[cleo4patra]

Hiya Beetle,

 

Interesting point, I have been expecting a claim coming through for some considerable time, any time, keep checking the post but its not there. Best shut up before I tempt fate:D

 

I have received many threats, ignored them and waited;)

thanks for all that - I believe they are too late to re-issue a 2nd default as I understand demanding full balance amounts to termination???

 

I am going to write and ask for the original to be made available to me in the store.

 

Can I do this under the pre-action protocols as they are threatening legal action please???

 

Thanks once again

 

By the way there are several other M & S customers with the same "reverse " of agreement as me - same postmark, identifying marks etc

[cleo4patra]

Cleo...a defective DN is good to have in your armoury but keep it to yourself as they can quash it and reissue as and when they wish...do not worry about ccj...if this goes to court the world would have to stop revolving before they found in M&S favour (as long as you defend it that is !) Send them the letter and keep copy for file in case you need it.

 

ps.When we rented recently (having just sold our house) no credit check was necessary...landlords/property management companies were more interested in getting status report from our bank...one house we looked at stated they would do credit check but they were looking for £2k a month rent...go see local renting companies in your area and ask what they will need...always good to know in advance.

brilliant - thanks!!

[exchange]

Hi cleo4patra,

I am in the same boat in that I have had two defective DN's and two full demand's for payment, which I have now told them I accept as termination of the contract. They don't seem to use the word 'termination' ever, probably deliberately. I have a copy of an application form they claim is the agreement but like most so called 'agreements' it doesn't stack up to the rules.

[cleo4patra]

Just checking in - not much to report - keep getting letters from M & S- however in the last letter they have admitted the account was terminated!!

 

Have had further letter now saying they are investigating further.??????

[hellhasnofury]

Just checking in - not much to report - keep getting letters from M & S- however in the last letter they have admitted the account was terminated!!

 

Have had further letter now saying they are investigating further.??????

Hiya Cleo,

 

They are pretty good at sending these, thank you for bring your complaint to our attention, we are continueing to investigate further:roll:

 

Lets hope they read the new publication from the Office of Fair Trading regarding not mis-leading customers as to their legal rights:D

[cleo4patra]

Hi - well I spoke too son - got a letter from GOTHIA (Red Castle Recoveries) today - does this mean M & S have completely ignored my request for docvuments under the pre-action protocol rules???

 

I am going to send Gothia the same info I sent Rockwell - who once they saw it - scarpered!!!!

[ajs444]

Hi Cleo,

 

Have already been chased by Collect Direct and Scotcall, repelled by letters from this forum, await the next muppets to take this on. Now been 13 months since the original PPI dispute was raised.

[cleo4patra]

well I received a letter today in response to my last request for original agreement to be made available to me...."We cannot provide you with the original paper copy of the agreement as it was scanned onto microfiche on recipt and the original destroyed..."

 

Any comments???? - they say the "copy of the agreement supplied to you following your request under the CCA is complaint and legally enforceable - as such our normal collections has continued."

 

They are admitting they don't have the original.

 

Any suggestions please? thanks cleo

[beetle1234]

Hi Cleo...I would guess this latest communication from them is no surprise to you ? Scare tactics and nothing more...keep positive and bear in mind you are actually building a strong case against them the longer this goes on...dodgy DN,possible dodgy termination process,admitting they cannot provide "true copy"...its all good.

Send them account in dispute letter(again) registered post,pay them nothing,do NOT speak to them on the phone....things WILL become a little clearer soon...it may well start with an offer to settle from one of their DCAs...I am now receiving these from MBNA regularly quoting around 30% of the total balance to end the disputes between us which I have no intention of paying!...as mentioned in an earlier post I am still not seeing any sign of a credit card company rushing to take ANY real legal action at this time...

I know that last week a High Court heard arguments from several "debt claims" companies and the OFT on the subject of "non true copy" agreements like yours where credit card co. cannot produce original docs when requested..I believe court will announce findings in January...IF they find in favour of the defendant (us) flood gates will open to have thousands of cases written off and the obvious Defaults struck off too...

If I was a betting man I would say there is a strong argument for this to happen however I am also now extremely cynical so would expect immediate appeals from the credit card companies and lots of time wasted...I guess we should all just sit tight and wait it out if we can.Good luck.

[slick132]

Hi Cleo,

 

Beetle's right. A while ago, the confession that the original doc't no longer exists would be a cause for celebration.

 

However, until the cases currently being considered are resolved, I think you should keep the champagne in the fridge.

 

Wait until we have some clearer guidance on the "test" cases and take it from there.

 

In the meantime, tell the DCA's to clear off, as there is no credit agreement for them to rely on.

[cleo4patra]

thanks and if all else fails they terminated on a dodgy DN - they have also admitted to termination (in writing) as well

[Valhalla]

Hello,

I've been reading up on your fun with M & S.

Perhaps someone can help me with an M & S case of my own?

 

My file has been passed to Lowell Financial who wrote to me saying that they had purchased the alledged credit card debt from M & S

 

I though that any such sales had to be supported by a Notice of Assignment so I wrote back asking to see a copy of the Notice of Assignment, to which Lowell replied

 

"I wrote to inform you that your M & S account ref .... has been sold to Lowell Portfolio Ltd on 01/06/09, Lowell Financial Ltd has been appointed as the duly authorised collection agent for recovery of the outstanding balance."

 

Questions questions...

 

Is it true that a N o A must be issued when a debt is sold to a third party?

If so what does a N o A look like ( I've never seen one despite having asked for one several times)

Does Lowell's answer above constitute a proper reply?

If they don't send the N o A where does that leave me and what can I / should I do next?

 

Hope someone can thorow some light on this or tell me whre to look

 

Thanks and good luck with your own case

 

Valhalla

[slick132]

Hi Valhalla,

 

If you haven't already done so, start a new thread in this forum to discuss your case and ask your questions.