Sigma SPV1 Ltd court claim form for M & S store/credit card***Discontinued**

[AndyOrch]

There you go :- http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html

 

Regards

 

Andy

[cleo4patra]

There you go :- http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thank you

- I can remember reading this some time ago as it was in the news for a while.

 

In my paperwork is a sample letter (not even our name/address on it) stating my husband didn't need to fill in a form for change of card

and you can clearly see on the bottom of the copy application "Chargecard" which is the copy application sent to me several times on request from M & S and several DCA s

 

- just reverse and T & C's have varied from time to time.

 

There has been very little paperwork forthcoming from M & S (by their own admission they destroyed the application original

- they told me this in writing after having pestered them for months and months)

 

- I kept it all in a file in date order so that's good.

 

To be honest the claim form had the desired effect

 

- made me panic and almost sent it back admitting it!!!!

 

I have sent the section 78 off today recorded and today will put together my CPR letter.

 

Can a defense be several points or just one point as I am getting notes together

 

and i think there are several points to be raised. thanks so much and I know I have to take responsibility for how to progress with this.

 

Did you read the thread-appreciate you are busy

[AndyOrch]

Excellent Cleo.

 

Dont concern yourself of the defence as yet....time to gather any information.I have not had time to run through the existing thread as yet but will make time next week.

 

Regards

Andy

[cleo4patra]

thank you - I understand I can wait to send the AoS as i have until 4pm on Monday 26th November? I must point out that I am not a shrinking violet and have stood up for myself in Emplyment tribunal (not the same i know) but it is just that it is unchartered waters for me - but looking back on my thread it reads like War and Peace. Got my head into gear now. thanks so much for the guidance and support

[cleo4patra]

Hi - urgently need a template letter for CPR 31.14 requesting documentation in POC - found some but they are quite old and also they say "have sent in AoS" which I haven't done yet. need to send this asap thanks

[AndyOrch]

Just take out that you have completed the AoS or hold the CPR 14 until you have.

 

Link sent by PM for CPR 31.14.

 

Andy

[cleo4patra]

letter all done - edited out AoS as haven't sent yet . will post recorded tomorrow

 

thanks again

[slick132]

Hi Cleo,

 

Link to report about Santander v Mayhew case here. Read to see if it'll help your case - https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html&sa=U&ei=UWSlUMyfKdTQ4QTMjICIAQ&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNEml8w5Q8gI104sDGElPu1cy6_ZkA

 

Re your PM, there's a sticky in the Debt; Legal Issues forum which should help re a CPR31.14 request - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

[cleo4patra]

thanks for that - I have read it today and it is very similar. Got the CPR letter from that post thanks and will send recorded tomorrow. I am nervous as never had to do this before but I cannot just give in after four years. Can I just confirm 14 days from date of service to send in AoS - then another 14 days to submit defence?? Haven't acknowledged yet.

[cleo4patra]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?168827-M-amp-S-Money/page3 link copied from previous thread showing documents received from M & S and DCA's in response to request for copy of agreement several times. This where the "reverse" has several distinctive marks on it and received by several M & S customers on this site

[AndyOrch]

Cleo the time line is 33 days (look at the date on your summons add 5 days for service) so 28 days remaining ...14 to AoS and a further 14 to submit defence. (28).

 

Andy

[cleo4patra]

I posted my CPR 31.14 request letter today first class recorded - late next week will respond to claim (AoS or otherwise) I know its previous to start thinking about defence but there are so many issues to raise with this. Have been reading a lot of threads on site and will go through paperwork thoroughly at the weekend. thanks

Edited November 16, 2012 by cleo4patra
spelling

[WelshMam2009]

Could I just add another thought for Cleo's defence and perhaps those more legally minded could comment.

 

As I understand it, Cleo received a letter, following a s78 CCA request, stating that her agreement had been destroyed.

Pursuant to s172 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, statements made in response to requests made under s78(1) are legally binding.

Therefore, there is no means of the original agreement ever being produced to confirm that it was signed and legally enforceable etc

 

 

Not sure what the current position is on having to produce an original signed copy of the agreement in court but, if the original has been destroyed, then how can it be proven that it was signed and compliant?

 

 

The transfer to a credit card from store card is extremely relevant Cleo and other CAG members have already drawn your attention to this case law.

I think that Sigma are hoping to win based on consumer ignorance of these issues. As I see it Cleo, you have nothing to lose by defending this claim but stand to win everything.

 

 

Best of luck Cleo...will be following with interest

[cleo4patra]

thanks for the input

- yes it was in a letter which I have obviously

- originally they sent me a scanned copy of application as posted in old link on this thread

 

- reverse is illegible which I brought to their attention.

 

One of my main issues is this

- i was contacted from a guy in Canada who had exactly the same "reverse" as mine

- same postmark, same handwritten figures , same photocopying marks.

 

If so how could that be a true copy of my original?? Others had received it as well!!

 

After I pestered to see the original they finally admitted it had been destroyed.

 

I have read the case Mayhew and it certainly has some very interesting similar points.

 

Could I just add another thought for Cleo's defence and perhaps those more legally minded could comment.

 

 

As I understand it, Cleo received a letter, following a s78 CCA request, stating that her agreement had been destroyed.

 

Pursuant to s172 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, statements made in response to requests made under s78(1) are legally binding.

 

Therefore, there is no means of the original agreement ever being produced to confirm that it was signed and legally enforceable etc

 

 

Not sure what the current position is on having to produce an original signed copy of the agreement in court but, if the original has been destroyed, then how can it be proven that it was signed and compliant?

 

 

The transfer to a credit card from store card is extremely relevant Cleo and other CAG members have already drawn your attention to this case law.

I think that Sigma are hoping to win based on consumer ignorance of these issues. As I see it Cleo, you have nothing to lose by defending this claim but stand to win everything.

 

 

Best of luck Cleo...will be following with interest

[Guest]

.......... This is what bothers me - what exactly is my defence, the changeover and no new agreement? the copy of original agreement with same revers and postmark as others? default notice with no specified date (14 days from date above etc) and not enough days of service allowed? or all of tha bove/ .......

 

'all of the above', and anything else that comes to light.

[cleo4patra]

Hi - anything I can be doing in the meantime? - aprt from reading up anc checking paperwork etc. I think I SAR'd them it's so long ago - I will check this out as I stored it away separately but I am sure it was just mostly statements etc . My problem is trying not to panic over this and I need to stay focussed - not too worried about paperwork etc.just about correct procedure and consequences of my actions if I defend

 

Cleo the time line is 33 days (look at the date on your summons add 5 days for service) so 28 days remaining ...14 to AoS and a further 14 to submit defence. (28).

 

Andy

[debbbbsy]

Hi,

 

Is the account reference number on the storecard application the same as the one on the claim form ?

 

The Storecard application cannot be used to enforce the credit card, the terms and conditions of the 2 cards differ in many ways.

 

Clearer store card conversion for consumers - Office of Fair Trading

 

 

 

Howard Cohen/GE Money discontinue claim

 

 

 

Although the recent court case was not at a high court, the OFT have accepted this case can be referred to for other cases.

"Upgraded" Storecards were the customer did not sign a new agreement are unenforceable.

[cleo4patra]

This what I need to investigate further _ will check back in all my documents - the only copy application I have ever received in response to my CCA is the one on this thread - clearly says Chargecard on it. Their copy letter states we didn't have to fill any forms in. I will see if anything different turns up in response to my CPR request - thanks for the links

[cleo4patra]

looking at the copy agreement for Chargecard they sent in the first place:

 

T & C's are almost illegible

- really tiny and smudged.

 

Credit limit referred is requested on the application form via tick box.

 

Interest rate is not clear - there is a table but it doesn't actually say this is the interest payable and above it says "Conditions of Use". Says "Card" is a Marks and Spencer Chargecard!

 

I had to strain to read this - Don't have another agreement for a credit card

 

 

Could I just add another thought for Cleo's defence and perhaps those more legally minded could comment.

 

 

As I understand it, Cleo received a letter, following a s78 CCA request, stating that her agreement had been destroyed.

 

Pursuant to s172 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, statements made in response to requests made under s78(1) are legally binding.

 

Therefore, there is no means of the original agreement ever being produced to confirm that it was signed and legally enforceable etc

 

 

Not sure what the current position is on having to produce an original signed copy of the agreement in court but, if the original has been destroyed, then how can it be proven that it was signed and compliant?

 

 

The transfer to a credit card from store card is extremely relevant Cleo and other CAG members have already drawn your attention to this case law.

I think that Sigma are hoping to win based on consumer ignorance of these issues. As I see it Cleo, you have nothing to lose by defending this claim but stand to win everything.

 

 

Best of luck Cleo...will be following with interest

[cleo4patra]

going through documents

- letter from M & S Feb 2009

"The copy agreement that we have provided was for the original account card which was later transferred to the above numbered credit card account.

 

I have also enclosed a copy of the letter that was sent to you prior to this change,

enclosing the New T & C's for the credit card account.

 

This letter also gave you the opportunity to keep your existing account rather than have the NEW credit card,

as shown in the penultimate paragraph.

 

We have provided in good faith all the informationnwe are required to provide under sections 77 or 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

We have examined this agreement and account and are satisfied that we have a legally enforceable agreement with you and this, at the least,

is evidenced by your use of the account and receipt of the credit funds.

 

We will not correspond further with you in this matter.....

 

" Enclosed - completely illegible copy of I think say

"& MORE CREDIT CARD CREdIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974" with a barcode on it .

and a "copy" letter dated September 2003 addresses to AB SAMPLE of Sample Street ,

 

- which states "You'll also see that I,ve included some new Terms and Conditions that will apply from 3rd October 2003.

... As you already have a M & S Chargecard you will be receiving your & More Credit Card soon."

 

Incidentally

I don't have a copy of an ACTUAL letter like the one above with our ACTUAL

 

address on it - just what M & S said we would have received at the time?????

 

Can the "agre???ement"

 

attached to this copy letter be valid/

(it is also illegible - I am of the understanding we should have signed such an agreement and M & S say they can "vary" an agreement

Edited November 18, 2012 by dx100uk
please try and add blank lines - dx

[Guest]

also, don't forget the need for a compliant default notice as well. there is also high court and court of appeal authority on that.

have you previously done a sar on this? their communication logs should show what has been sent. your cpr request though should throw up some info, either way.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Ford

[cleo4patra]

• yes - it is stored away so will be retrieving it tomorrow.
  
• 
  
• As far as I can remember it was mainly statements but I will check properly tomorrow. Re the default notice
  
• - we received a default notice but it is our understanding it didn't give enough time after service (kept the envelope) however I don't know if this would be viewed as de minimis?? . My problem is I have so many different issues with this I don't know what my main point of defence is.
  
• 
  
• I have a dodgy first copy of chargecard agreement - the original of which has been destroyed.
  
• 
  
• The Chargecard was replaced and I have been sent a copy of "sample letter" they say was sent to me at the time along with new T & C's headed Credit agreement
  
• 
  
• Default notice with not enough days of service - unsure of any other problems with default notice
  
• 
  
• Account has been to several DCA's who threw it back to M and S as soon as I explained all this
  

thanks and as you say it will be interesting to see what response I get to my CPR request and CCA request

Edited November 18, 2012 by cleo4patra
addition

[Guest]

• 
  ..... Re the default notice - we received a default notice but it is our understanding it didn't give enough time after service (kept the envelope) however I don't know if this would be viewed as de minimis?? . My problem is I have so many different issues with this I don't know what my main point of defence is.
   
  
• Default notice with not enough days of service - unsure of any other problems with default notice
   
  

thanks and as you say it will be interesting to see what response I get to my CPR request and CCA request

 

as mentioned before, 'all of the above' and anything else that comes to light.

as stated in that mayhew case, and the higher authorities (Woodchester HL case, Harrison HC case, Brandon CA case), there should be no 'de minimus' excuse as such re a dn. if you want the dn double checked, scan up a copy minus any identifiables.

ps, re fresh agreement required, if it was prior to 04/07? then they would also need to show that it was signed? (s127 (3)(4) cc act, (Wilson HL case))

Edited November 18, 2012 by Ford

[cleo4patra]

it was Sept/Oct 2003 that the card was changed - I will post up some documents tomorrow as I think it would be useful. THANKS FOR THE INFO. I think the letter says that signing the card means we accepted the new t & c's/agreement??

Edited November 18, 2012 by cleo4patra
addition

[Guest]

....I think the letter says that signing the card means we accepted the new t & c's/agreement??

 

no, not necessarily. again see the mayhew case, '...The new card was sent unsolicited to the Defendant who needed to sign and activate it before she used it. It was open to the Defendant to decline the new card but she chose to activate it and use it... In my judgment the Claimant's analysis is wrong and there was a modification of the agreement requiring compliance with regulation7' ie despite the 'activation'/use, reg 7 compliance still required. i know in your case some terms were apparently sent, but that's open to question whether compliant with reg 7 etc and poss the need for the 'fresh' agreement (not the card) to have been signed as required by s127.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Ford