Rossendales payment arrangement

[rayman1212]

Help, please...I need advice.

 

The bailiffs have 2 council tax liabilty orders on me.

 

The bailiff said I could still make an arrangement with them if i paid £190 immediately and they did a walking possession on goods.

 

I did as asked and sent the forms off with an offer to pay £100 per month.

 

I've got a reply saying that I have to pay £250 on each order per month.

 

I am unemployed and not entitled to benefit, my wife only earns £860 per month.

 

My rent is £340 per month which would leave us with £20 per month to live on.

 

The first payment is due next week.

 

I've resigned myself to losing the few things we have of any value, such as the tv..

.even though the value of all the items is probably less than 1/3 of the debt.

 

Can anyone help me?

[MARTIN3030]

Can you clarify if they did a WP ?

[outlawla]

Which council?

[rayman1212]

Yes they did a WP, I thought it was the only way I was going to get an agreement.

It is Durham County Council

[TB Law]

Then its not valid : Evans v South Ribble Borough Council [1992] QB 757

[rayman1212]

Then its not valid : Evans v South Ribble Borough Council [1992] QB 757

 

Sorry, I don't understand

[TB Law]

The levy on your goods is invalid because the bailiff did not make it inside your home, you signed a document and returned it to the bailiffs office. The Evans case dissallowed what are called 'doorstep levies' or levies that are made away from the debtors property.

[sequenci]

Then its not valid : Evans v South Ribble Borough Council [1992] QB 757

 

It is impossible from the facts given so far to determine whether or not that case is relevant, surely?

[ploddertom]

When they made the WPA did they come to see you, did you let them in? If so can you list the goods seized exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure?

[sequenci]

The levy on your goods is invalid because the bailiff did not make it inside your home, you signed a document and returned it to the bailiffs office. The Evans case dissallowed what are called 'doorstep levies' or levies that are made away from the debtors property.

 

The OP doesn't state whether or not the OP has gained entry - unless I"m missing something (and I often might do!)

[ploddertom]

Tomorrow morning. You need to speak to someone at the Council and ask the following questions:

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

8 - the dates & amounts of any payments

[TB Law]

No, the OP doesnt say the bailiff entered the property but he said "they did a walking possession on goods" that can only mean the levy was made outside the property and it fails the test of Evans v South Ribble. @sequenci

[brassnecked]

If the bailiff didn't enter the property, and the list is generic, then the levy must fail.

[rayman1212]

When they made the WPA did they come to see you, did you let them in? If so can you list the goods seized exactly as described on the Notice of Seizure?

 

I appologise for not making things more clear, yes I did let him in

The list of goods is as follows

Panasonic flat screen tv

glass tv stand

sky hd box

panasonic dvd player

microwave oven (he asked if i had one, think he was scared to go into kitchen because of my dogs)

brow wall cabinet (think he meant BROWN wall unit)

 

Have only just noticed the second seizure notice has a black leather sofa listed instead of dvd player.....as i have a 2 and 3 seater, i'm not sure which one he has listed

Edited November 6, 2012 by rayman1212
need to update for factual accuracy

[ploddertom]

I appologise for not making things more clear, yes I did let him in

The list of goods is as follows

Panasonic flat screen tv - what size & how old

glass tv stand - no value

sky hd box - no value and is probably the property of Sky

panasonic dvd player - unless faily new & top of range then little value

microwave oven (he asked if i had one, think he was scared to go into kitchen because of my dogs) - does he have make, model & serial no, do you have an alternative means of cooking

brow wall cabinet (think he meant BROWN wall unit) - unless solid wood then of little value

Have only just noticed the second seizure notice has a black leather sofa listed instead of dvd player.....as i have a 2 and 3 seater, i'm not sure which one he has listed

 

has he listed the same items apart from the sofa on both Notices?

[rayman1212]

the same items are listed on both notices except sofa on one and dvd player on other.

the tv is 46" and 3 years old

the wall unit was second hand 15 years ago

he has no details at all on the microwave...but we do have a full size cooker.

 

Are they able to take other things that are not on the list?

[ploddertom]

He can have one or the other but not both. Did he also list on his Notice of Seizure the fees he was charging, may be on the reverse? Although we don't yet know what you owe I would suggest the levy is for insufficient goods and if that is the case would then suggest he only made a levy in order to gain a financial advantage for himself and his company.

 

He has had his chance and may not do another levy - although technically if one of these is invalid he could levy again. Even when he comes back you do not have to allow him in - he may well invoke all sorts of threats but you are allowed to deny him entry. One way of moving forward is to pay the Council direct via online banking, Council website or automated phone

[rayman1212]

I am ashamed to say that the outstanding balance is 2 grand, the fees are listed

[brassnecked]

In that case it is clearly a levy on insufficient goods, and can be regarded as merely to garner fees. He would need to list £20,000 of goods to satisfy the debt if the goods were taken and sold, as distress sale items usually sell for 110% of their value. Does the settee have it's fire retardant labels still attached? If not and the bailiff did take it, he could not sell it, and the auction house would be in serious trouble if it did as it is illegal for a commercial enterprise to sell settees and chairs where there is no "ORIGINAL" fire retardant tags still attached.

 

There are ways to challenge the levy, one would be a Formal Complaint stating you are aggrieved by the levy which as the goods cannot pay all fees, and a portion of the debt if sold, can only be for the sole purpose of garnering fees for their agent the bailiff for whom they are wholly liable. Before doing this pay an amount you can afford in to the online system as suggested by ploddertom, and indicate that this is what you are going to dot regularly to show you aren't a won't pay, as you cannot trust the bailiff to deal fairly with you, .

Edited November 7, 2012 by brassnecked

[rayman1212]

ok, thanks for the help....i will do that.....i am assuming that the bailiffs will still come to my house to remove the items, do they have to give me notice of when they will come and is it best for me to let them in or will they just use a locksmith if i don't?

[outlawla]

ok, thanks for the help....i will do that.....i am assuming that the bailiffs will still come to my house to remove the items, do they have to give me notice of when they will come and is it best for me to let them in or will they just use a locksmith if i don't?

 

 

I thought I might have the figures to put into perspective the likelihood of bailiffs removing your possessions. I have figures, that most councils submit to the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy each year, which include the number of cases referred to bailiffs and the number where goods were removed.

 

Unfortunately Durham County Council have not submitted these – like a number of other councils. I have a theory that the councils withholding these figures have their council tax operations outsourced to Capita or similar.

 

Anyway, this should give you a rough idea from the data other councils have submitted:

 

Between 2007 to 2010, Birmingham City Council referred over 168,000 cases to bailiffs in connection with Council Tax to levy distress where only 80 of these had goods removed.

 

This represents less than 1 in every 2,000 cases (0.047 per cent).

 

2011-12

 

• Bedford Borough Council referred 7,034 cases to bailiffs. None had goods removed.
  

• Peterborough referred 5,010 cases to bailiffs. None had goods removed.
  

• North Somerset referred 8,637 cases to bailiffs. In only 2 cases goods were removed. (0.023%)
  

[TB Law]

He would need to list £20,000 of goods to satisfy the debt if the goods were taken and sold,

 

Those numbers would amount to excessive levy under the interpretation of the court in Steel Linings Limited, Mark Harvey v Bibby & Co [1993] EWCA because goods worth £46300 were taken for arrears of £7400 and the court agreed this was "clearly disproportionate".

[rayman1212]

thanks for all the info...but still need to know, if they do turn up, will i get notice and should i just let them in....also, if they turn up and iu'm not home, what happens if one of my dogs bites them when they get in...i have 3 dogs and they can get aggressive if strangers walk in on their own

[TB Law]

If the levy is valid the bailiff can enter with a locksmith under Mcleod -v- Butterwick [1996] so you need to see if the levy is not valid but goods cant be removed in your absence Kazanchi v Faircharm [1998]. Make sure you have 'beware of dog' sign otherwise you may be liable for dog bites.

[brassnecked]

ok, thanks for the help....i will do that.....i am assuming that the bailiffs will still come to my house to remove the items, do they have to give me notice of when they will come and is it best for me to let them in or will they just use a locksmith if i don't?

 

They cannot break in at this stage, and would need permission from a court and the council would have to apply for it, also, they would have to give you notice in writing of the date and time of attendance. So at the moment you don't have to let them in.