Oyster History

[consumerfor]

Hi,

I was caught last week at a London station just as I checked in with my Oyster card, they asked where I'd travelled from and asked to see a ticket for my whole journey. I admitted I did not have a ticket (I use the Oyster as an extension journey from an overland train)... they proceeded to check my oyster history, take notes, check my record, address etc... and said this is a caution after reading me my rights etc. They said I will receive a letter in the post asking for information and to provide previous overland paper tickets to prove I have bought tickets for the whole journey previously.

 

I think they said it's something like an IG11 caution, whatever that means? and not to ignore the letter and be co-operative.

 

Where do I stand in respect to proving I have bought tickets in the past? what happen's if I cannot provide any paper tickets or bank statements showing a ticket purchase... am I innocent until proven guilty?

[Conniff]

You don't have to prove what happened in the past or if there was or wasn't a ticket. If they want to take things further, they will have to show there wasn't any tickets bought.

 

Ask them how many tickets they have and how many receipts they have from shopping at Asda last year.

[consumerfor]

Okay thanks, so if they do ask me to provide paper tickets for say the previous two days return journeys.. I can say I don't have the tickets now they were thrown in the bin, and they wont take it further?...

 

What happens if they take it to court? and I have no proof of buying tickets

[Conniff]

I don't have proof I haven't commited a crime somewhere, it would be the same here, it's not up to you to prove you didn't, it is up to them to prove you did.

[consumerfor]

Thanks I hope your right. I'm dreading the letter which I'm going to receive in the post, they will probably be fishing for info trying to catch me out.

[Conniff]

There are some users on here whose work this is, so they will be able to give you the inside definition when they come on.

[Old-CodJA]

Conniff is spot-on.

 

If the TOC or TfL do not have firm evidence of an offence that they feel they can charge you with, it is not up to you to do their investigative work for them.

 

Do not provide any information about any journey that they cannot prove you made from evidence that they already have.

 

They are referring to you being cautioned and interviewed for the purposes of an MG11 report (statement of incident)

 

I would wait until you get their letter and if it asks for information in relation to days prior to the one on which you were spoken to and questioned, I would write back asking them to detail their allegation by saying something like this:

 

"Please specify which dates and times and what journeys the company alleges that I have made in order that I can co-operate fully with your request. Please provide me with a document confirming your evidence that I have made other journeys on non TfL services not covered by my Oyster, other than that on XXXX date when I was spoken to by your staff"

 

They will probably pull the last 8 weeks record of useage on your Oyster Card, but they cannot charge you on guesswork. They do have to have evidence.

 

If you have difficulty after you have received the letter, come back and tell us what it says.

[consumerfor]

Hi all, the letter I have been dreading has finally come through… and I'm not entirely sure how to respond? My first thoughts are to admit I was the person questioned and own up that I did not have a valid ticket for my previous journey, I was running late for work, it's my first offence etc and I'm willing to pay the penalty charge fare to prevent the matter from going any further.... is this a good approach? or should I do nothing and not reply? letter attached.

[consumerfor]

I'm having some trouble uploading, I blacked some info out on the letter and saved as a JPEG to 'insert image' but no go. Any ideas?

[consumerfor]

The letter says: (issued by Greater Anglia, Prosecutions Unit)

 

"On 'day' 'date' 'month' 'year' at 'Station' (London) station a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of rail staff about the payment of a rail fare.

 

All the available evidence is being considered as to whether legal proceedings are appropriate. if you consider that there are further mitigating factors that may influence any decision that may be made about this matter you are invited to respond, within 14 days of the date of this letter using the enclosed freepost envelope. if you wish to make any comments about the incident, please do so on the reverse of this letter. please ensure that ALL details are completed and returned to ensure our records are correct."

 

Then boxes for name, address, DOB, occupation, post code etc

[firstclassx]

Hi all, the letter I have been dreading has finally come through… and I'm not entirely sure how to respond? My first thoughts are to admit I was the person questioned and own up that I did not have a valid ticket for my previous journey, I was running late for work, it's my first offence etc and I'm willing to pay the penalty charge fare to prevent the matter from going any further.... is this a good approach? or should I do nothing and not reply? letter attached.

 

If you ignore, the next letter will be a summons.

 

I still don't really understand what's going on though. Why did they interview you under caution?

 

Presumably you are admitting travelling without a valid ticket as per Byelaw 18?

 

One of the site team will help you with uploading a letter which should clarify a few things.

 

It sounds as though you started at station A without a valid ticket, travelled to station C but presented a ticket only valid between B and C, meaning A to B was uncovered, meaning a short fare was paid.

Edited October 4, 2012 by firstclassx

[consumerfor]

Okay i shall reply then.

 

I basically run for the train as I was late and did not buy my daily ticket for the overground train, I then switch at Stratford to catch the tube... they caught me checking in at Stratford with my Oyster and asked where I had been travelling from etc and asked me to produce a ticket for that part of the journey which I did not have. So in essence it's possible to avoid paying the overground fare at all given an Oyster or travelcard ticket can be used for the second part of the journey.

[firstclassx]

Okay i shall reply then.

 

I basically run for the train as I was late and did not buy my daily ticket for the overground train, I then switch at Stratford to catch the tube... they caught me checking in at Stratford with my Oyster and asked where I had been travelling from etc and asked me to produce a ticket for that part of the journey which I did not have. So in essence it's possible to avoid paying the overground fare at all given an Oyster or travelcard ticket can be used for the second part of the journey.

 

Basically you need to write an apology and admit that you arrived at Stratford without a valid ticket for the journey you made. All you can do is apologise unreservedly and offer to cover any administrative costs.

[consumerfor]

Basically you need to write an apology and admit that you arrived at Stratford without a valid ticket for the journey you made. All you can do is apologise unreservedly and offer to cover any administrative costs.

 

Okay i think I'm in a bit of trouble!?

 

I wrote a letter back to them explaining I'm really sorry and offered to pay costs etc as recommended... and I did not hear anything for ages (almost 3 months) then yesterday I got home from work and opened a brown envelope to reveal a court summons

 

I'm a little bit upset and unsure how to deal with the whole thing, so I need a bit of advice...

 

From reading through the jargon I have 3 options.

 

1. Plead 'guilty' by post

2. Plead 'guilty' in court

3. Plead 'not guilty' in court

 

They have applied for £100 in costs to cover admin plus the train fare (then whatever fine I guess they decide to impose)

 

Within the summons they have included a form where i need to state my financial circumstances including salary, outgoings etc

 

The pack also contains the rail officers statement describing me and statement of fact including the conversation we had about the journey, within the whole statement I have admitted I travelled without a ticket and I co-operated through the whole ordeal stating the truth.

 

This court summons does not acknowledge my letter which I wrote back to Greater Anglia admitting my wrong doing and offering to pay costs, so looks like they want to go to town on me..... any help would be really appreciated.

[BazzaS]

Okay i think I'm in a bit of trouble!?

 

I wrote a letter back to them explaining I'm really sorry and offered to pay costs etc as recommended... and I did not hear anything for ages (almost 3 months) then yesterday I got home from work and opened a brown envelope to reveal a court summons

 

I'm a little bit upset and unsure how to deal with the whole thing, so I need a bit of advice...

 

From reading through the jargon I have 3 options.

 

1. Plead 'guilty' by post

2. Plead 'guilty' in court

3. Plead 'not guilty' in court

 

They have applied for £100 in costs to cover admin plus the train fare (then whatever fine I guess they decide to impose)

 

Within the summons they have included a form where i need to state my financial circumstances including salary, outgoings etc

 

The pack also contains the rail officers statement describing me and statement of fact including the conversation we had about the journey, within the whole statement I have admitted I travelled without a ticket and I co-operated through the whole ordeal stating the truth.

 

This court summons does not acknowledge my letter which I wrote back to Greater Anglia admitting my wrong doing and offering to pay costs, so looks like they want to go to town on me..... any help would be really appreciated.

 

What charge does the summons lay?. (Name of statute & the wording).

[consumerfor]

What charge does the summons lay?. (Name of statute & the wording).

 

If you inform the clerk of the court that you wish to plead guilty to the charge(s) of:

 

1. That you did contravene Byelaw no 18 (1) of the Railway Byelaws made under section 219 and schedule 20 of the Transport Act 2000, in accordance with Railways Act 2005, in that you entered a train in a non-compulsory ticket area for the purpose of traveling on the railway without having with you a valid ticket entitling you to travel.

[consumerfor]

Can anyone recommend a good solicitor?

[honeybee13]

Can anyone recommend a good solicitor?

 

Hello there.

 

We don't recommend lawyers here, it's against site rules I'm afraid. You shouldn't need one for a straightforward byelaw case, I would expect the guys here will be able to guide you.

 

How long have you got before court please? The other thing is not to give up trying to negotiate with TfL, hopefully one of the rail guys will give you and idea what to try. Although it seems that TfL often take a tough stance over any sort of fare invasion.

 

HB

[andydd]

Just a thought but Ive sometimes been in the same situation, arriving at Stratford without a ticket, but this is because the station I sometimes get on at has no ticket machine and the ticket office closes after luch.

 

What is someone suppossed to do upon arriving at Stratford wishing to continue their journey on the tube ?. Go to the ticket office (some distance away) and buy a ticket ?, is someone commiting an offence if they swipe their Oyster ?

 

Andy

[consumerfor]

Hello there.

 

We don't recommend lawyers here, it's against site rules I'm afraid. You shouldn't need one for a straightforward byelaw case, I would expect the guys here will be able to guide you.

 

How long have you got before court please? The other thing is not to give up trying to negotiate with TfL, hopefully one of the rail guys will give you and idea what to try. Although it seems that TfL often take a tough stance over any sort of fare invasion.

 

HB

My apologies HB I did not realise.

 

The prosecution is on behalf of Greater Anglia. The court is 8th January.

 

Reading between the lines should I contact the prosecution direct or court clerk to try and settle out of court?

[consumerfor]

Just a thought but Ive sometimes been in the same situation, arriving at Stratford without a ticket, but this is because the station I sometimes get on at has no ticket machine and the ticket office closes after luch.

 

What is someone suppossed to do upon arriving at Stratford wishing to continue their journey on the tube ?. Go to the ticket office (some distance away) and buy a ticket ?, is someone commiting an offence if they swipe their Oyster ?

 

Andy

Thanks Andy but I think that's still fare evasion plan and simple, I had to admit I did not have a ticket. I think the law here is quite black and white??

[honeybee13]

Hello again and thank you for the extra information.

 

You need to negotiate with Greater Anglia. Given the timing I think you may need to submit something to the court as well, but the guys will confirm if I'm right. It's also worth bearing in mind that you can continue to negotiate right up to the court date; you can see the prosecutor on the day.

 

HB

[consumerfor]

Hello all

I replied to the summons with a plea of 'guilty' and asked them to deal with it in my absence, I attached a letter of mitigating circumstances and they also asked about my financial situation which was a form showing my income and expenses that I had to fill out.

 

What happens next?

As my plea is guilty and it's a first offence which I have apologised for etc... is it standard for them to accept my plea and impose a fine? or will they continue the prosecution?.... fs it's a fine, any idea on how much the fine could be?

[unclebulgaria67]

I guess you will get a fine through the post to be paid within a set period and then what additional amounts you have to pay e.g the costs.

 

Have you searched around transport forums for fines that have been handed down ? I think it varies, depending on ability to pay and whether it is a first offence.

[unclebulgaria67]

According to another post on a different thread by someone who has knowledge of these issues, they thought the average fine in this situation was about £400 and then the costs on top.