ESA50 received. Not long been put in support group. ESA.

[BlurredFX]

Hi everybody,

 

I hope you can help. In May this year, after going to Tribunal, I was placed in the Support Group. The First-tier Tribunal document says: "The descriptors satisfied in Sch. 3 ESA Regulations are 15(b)". This is basically as a result of being fed by a tube up my nose for 12 hours a day.

 

Is this a mistake? I fear not, having read around a little.

 

There is nowhere I can put on the form my inability to eat/drink and being hooked up to a machine 12 hours a day, except for the other information, I suppose.

 

Do I need to call them and explain that I am in the support group?

 

Or, as I suspect, is this putting me back to square one so I can look forward to having my money reduced and going through the whole appeal process again - getting up tp date letters from my doctors and everything else?

 

Or is there another course of action to follow??

 

Blurred:)

[honeybee13]

Hello there. I can understand you're not happy about this. I would be annoyed if it happened to me.

 

There may be a more technical answer to this, hopefully someone in the know will be along later.

 

If you have to have the assessment, and I really hope you don't, have you gone into home visits before?

 

My best, HB

[BlurredFX]

I would be annoyed if it happened to me.

 

At this rate I'll end up on valium!!!!! I'm supposed to be ill, not permanently chasing round after some private enterprise. Don't start me, this is the wrong place!!!!

 

have you gone into home visits before?

 

No. For the 12 hours a day I am not hooked up to a machine, I am pretty able bodied - just can't lift anything.

 

That said, I also have to fit sleep into the other 12 hours I am not connected, but the machine is quite portable (in a ruck-sack).

 

Thanks v. much,

 

Blurred:)

[reallymadwoman]

You very clearly easily meet the descriptor 'cannot chew or swallow food', which is automatic entitlement to the support group regardless of how able you are the rest of the time. However, as you say there is nowhere on the form to put this. Since it was only in May that you won your tribunal (I am assuming your condition is not one which is likely to improve?) then could you not just fill in the 'other information' section of the form and send the same medical evidence?

 

I don't really understand how you could have 'failed' a medical in the first place - could the assessor not see the tube etc? or did you organise your daily routine so that it was not in place during your assessment? (This last bit is just being curious, though the answer might help someone else)

[SWLABR9]

How long is it since the original decision, the one you had to appeal against? Quite a while I'd think and that's probably why you've got another form now. Some people get reassessed every few months. The point is to harrass you till you stop claiming, I imagine. It'll be this way until the whole process is abandoned. You'd better see what you can do to become a disability campaigner

[SWLABR9]

The assessors work to quotas though. We've seen this from the tv exposure the WCAs had, Dispatches and Panorama. Grayling was very careful to say there are no financial targets. He didn't mention any other kind, like quotas for instance. We know they work to a predetermined 'norm', ie an expected output. If they dopn't meet that norm, ie quota, they're hauled in for questioning. So, what we might assume that means for the assessed is if the assessors have done their quota for the day or week or whatever it doesn't matter how ill you are, you will be failed so the assessors can keep their jobs.

[BlurredFX]

You very clearly easily meet the descriptor 'cannot chew or swallow food', which is automatic entitlement to the support group regardless of how able you are the rest of the time. However, as you say there is nowhere on the form to put this. Since it was only in May that you won your tribunal (I am assuming your condition is not one which is likely to improve?) then could you not just fill in the 'other information' section of the form and send the same medical evidence?

 

I don't really understand how you could have 'failed' a medical in the first place - could the assessor not see the tube etc? or did you organise your daily routine so that it was not in place during your assessment? (This last bit is just being curious, though the answer might help someone else)

 

(I hope) the tube isn't permanent. But it is certainly here for the time being. At the time (may 11) I did not have the tube in. I had to get letters from the Prof and my GP, saying that based on my medical notes from that time, I fitted the criteria. I then took this evidence to Tribunal and won.

 

How long is it since the original decision, the one you had to appeal against? Quite a while I'd think and that's probably why you've got another form now. Some people get reassessed every few months. The point is to harrass you till you stop claiming, I imagine. It'll be this way until the whole process is abandoned. You'd better see what you can do to become a disability campaigner

 

Original ATOS medical was May/June 11. DWP decidion set-aside May 2012. This letter has (obviously) come in August 12, so I guess you're right there, SW.

 

The assessors work to quotas though. We've seen this from the tv exposure the WCAs had, Dispatches and Panorama. Grayling was very careful to say there are no financial targets. He didn't mention any other kind, like quotas for instance. We know they work to a predetermined 'norm', ie an expected output. If they dopn't meet that norm, ie quota, they're hauled in for questioning. So, what we might assume that means for the assessed is if the assessors have done their quota for the day or week or whatever it doesn't matter how ill you are, you will be failed so the assessors can keep their jobs.

 

This sounds about what I would expect, and continues to make me froth at the mouth! But, I suppose 12 months on isn't too much to ask that I give an update as to my situation... that much seems reasonable, it's just the shoddy treatment I EXPECT from ATOS that scares me! It's all well and good getting the money back, but coping in the mean time is a WHOLE different kettle of fish. I am sure you all understand.

 

So, what do we suggest I do now? I am thinking that I fill the form in giving an accurate account of what i can and cannot do, and then in "Extra Information" give them the information, the facts, and even the appropriate descriptors and there references, and see what comes from that??

 

Also, and it might be better to start a new thread, but I was reading through the esa50 guide from the forums, and it mentions bags/collection devices.

 

I am largely continent (occasional mis-hap), but I do have a drain in-situ, which is essentially a tube running to my insides draining off a loads of stinking sepsis. If it leaks, it stinks (really bad) and I have to get changed etc. I suppose I might as well fill that lot in and let them dis-regard it... but I dont suppose anyone knows about this do they??

 

Thanks guys, CAG always helps me focus on these things. Without you I'd sit here anxious for days and doing nothing about it!!

 

Blurred:)

[reallymadwoman]

I can't comment on your specific conditions, all I will say is that this is one occasion when dignity and embarrassment have to fall by the wayside and you have to be brutally honest.

 

Check the actual descriptors for each section before you fill it in (they're in Schedule 1 and 2 here:- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/228/contents/made) as the questions often don't directly relate to the descriptors. If none of the boxes are an exact fit, don't tick them, just explain how you are affected in the box provided, and don't be afraid to write stuff in where ever it will fit - there's no extra marks for being tidy.

 

When explaining a particular problem I try to stick to the format of what I can't do, why I can't do it, what happens if I try and also I like to give an actual, recent, example. E.g. I cannot sit for longer than 10 minutes even in an ergonomically designed chair because it causes severe pain in my back and leg. If I try to sit for longer the pain becomes unbearable and can last for the rest of the day. Pain killers generally have no effect, even the tramadol and gabapentin. I recently had to wait 15 minutes to see the consultant. When I was called in, the nurse and my daughter had to haul me out of the chair and I could barely walk because of the pain.

 

Good luck!

[BlurredFX]

So, what do we suggest I do now? I am thinking that I fill the form in giving an accurate account of what i can and cannot do, and then in "Extra Information" give them the information, the facts, and even the appropriate descriptors and there references, and see what comes from that??

 

Then, if I get called for a "medical" I can gather up to date evidence from the relevant professionals... as though the presence of a feeding tube blatantly up my nose isn't enough.

 

Am I on the right lines here??

[reallymadwoman]

Yes fill the form in carefully and comprehensively, after checking which descriptors you might fit as well as the eating and drinking one, and check the exact wording of that one too.

 

If you could get a letter from your GP confirming you have the tube to submit with your form you might find you don't even get called for an assessment.

[BlurredFX]

and check the exact wording of that one too.

 

Funny you should say that, as the Tribunal has made a clerical error - it should be 16(b) as the descriptor - 15(b) seems to relate to requiring assisting getting food to my mouth without discomfort; 16(b) is the inability to actually eat without discomfort.

 

I will just include the tribunal notice and say that things have not changed. They can change the descriptor if they so wish.

 

I doubt I can get a letter of my GP in time, but I shall request one. Then when they do call me for medical I can send a copy of that, and then take one with me on the day as well.

 

Do you think their clerical error is likely to be a problem?

 

Blurred:)

Edited August 21, 2012 by BlurredFX
typo

[reallymadwoman]

No. ATOS will take no notice of the tribunal result at all.

[honeybee13]

Hello again.

 

Don't forget leemack's sticky on filling in an ESA50, in case it helps you.

 

HB

[abc123def]

I was placed in the support group and an ESA50 arrived 3 months later. I wasn't well enough to complete the form but did my best with it in order to meet the deadline. I've heard nothing yet but am watching the post for that dreaded envelope. So yes, support group and a new form 3 months on seems to be par for the course.

[worried33]

wording is funny, as its said many times on here how things are worded can affect the result, which is why people ask CAB for help as they know the right words to use.

 

I have had 4 past IB assessmemts, first faied, 2nd and 3rd face to face assessments got over 15 points, the 4th I got 15 points just on my form no face to face. The form also had no evidence attached. When the 4th form went in is when they were starting the ESA assessments, so my belief is part of the reasons they skip face to face is workload, because also after that 4th form went in I had no more assessments until my ESA migration, over 2 year gap when prior they were 12 months apart.

[gregbythesea]

I have been reading this thread with great interest. Some of the comments have opened my eyes to things that I didn't think were relevant to either ESA or even DLA.

 

I'll give an explanation as it might help others.

 

I am hospitalised on average every 3 months and stay for about 2/3 weeks. During that time and as a direct result of this particular condition (only one of many) I am not allowed to eat anything. I am fed 'food' through a central line inserted into a blood vessel in my neck. After discharge, I still am not allowed to eat for a week or so and have prescription food drinks. It then takes quite a few weeks for my body to get used to 'normal' food. About once/twice a year I cannot digest solid food and I am fed through a tube in my nose at home for a few weeks.

 

I never realised that (a) being in hospital affected a claim for ESA whilst on the assessment phase and (b) that this method of feeding was worth mentioning for a claim of ESA or DLA. To me it's just normal and I get on with it.

[reallymadwoman]

Unless you had read all the descriptors you would have no reason to even suspect that ability to eat or drink is relevant because it's not mentioned on the ESA50 form.

[BlurredFX]

(b) that this method of feeding was worth mentioning for a claim of ESA or DLA. To me it's just normal

 

It's hugely important for you that you get on top of your benefits entitlement for this. I am able bodied, but the implications in terms of sleep and fatigue are manageable, if you dont have to hold down a job. It is genuinely debilitating, and specifically allowed for in the regs. Get your own thread started - maybe the advice i received from my benefits adviser can help you. Inbox me a link.

 

No. ATOS will take no notice of the tribunal result at all.

 

I agree. But it helps build a picture so they have to look to see if I still fit the descriptor, which I do! No doubt they will call me in to physically check I have the tube... but you can only try your best, don't you think? Or am I missing something?

 

Many thanks for your help guys.

 

Blurred:)

[BlurredFX]

Unless you had read all the descriptors you would have no reason to even suspect that ability to eat or drink is relevant because it's not mentioned on the ESA50 form.

Please don't start me!!!!! I won't settle for hours lol

[reallymadwoman]

If a form as potentially misleading as the ESA50 were issued by e.g. a bank, Trading Standards would have a field day as it's so unfair, and some of the 'oversights' are allegedly being transferred to the forms for PIP.

 

I can't remember which question it is exactly and I'm not about to go searching around at this time of night, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the 'going out' questions where the tick boxes give you the options of 'usually', 'not very often' or 'it varies'. Most people will pick one of the boxes so if they never go out the most suitable one is 'not very often' but this of course implies that they sometimes go out which gets you a maximum of 6 points compared with the 15 they should get. Not that it will have been done deliberately of course.

[45002]

No. ATOS will take no notice of the tribunal result at all.

 

Would ATOS know about the tribunal decision anyway ?

[worried33]

Its quite possible ATOS dont even get told they been overturned. The DWP may well just process the result and then ATOS dont hear anything again until the next assessment. Remember officially ATOS are only advising, so the tribunal is overuling the DWP not ATOS.

[BlurredFX]

Its quite possible ATOS dont even get told they been overturned. The DWP may well just process the result and then ATOS dont hear anything again until the next assessment. Remember officially ATOS are only advising, so the tribunal is overuling the DWP not ATOS.

 

Didin't think about it like that, but yes, defo: I'll work on the basis they know nothing and spell it out for them and see how I go!

 

Blurred:)

[worried33]

interesting that grayling was hassled by channel 4 news on this all the way back in march 2011, and back then he was blaming labour saying the problem wa sinherited and would be fixed. Seems now late summer in 2012 its still the same.

[SWLABR9]

Blurred, this is a new assessment independent of the old one to see if you've adapted to your disability enough to make it possible for you now to do some sort of work. Expect them on a regular basis.