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HSBC - Robinson way (IND) claim - PLS HELP!


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Hi all,

 

I'm new to CAG, and have been really impressed with the useful information on the threads read so far! I was hoping someone might be able to offer some advise with a court claim I received today, (trying not to panic!).

 

The claimant is Robinson way (Hegarty LLP solicitors) for an HSBC overdraft (less than 2k) from back in 2007 (default date April 07). I got letters from RW over the last few years but haven't responded to any of their demands for payment because the overdraft itself was made up of so many penalty charges I really didn't think this was fair, I can't remember exactly how much. I've moved address a few times so not sure whether they have sent an NoA at any point, I haven't ever seen it. Around mid-June I received a final letter before action from IND which had pretty much no information about the debt apart from a account statement that looks like something they have put together themselves, I think they are making this out to be a NoA but I'm not sure (I've attached this but deleted some personal details)?

 

The particulars of the claim state that the NoA was provided to the defendant which I'm guessing is the IND letter before action? It doesn't reference anything else.

 

I was planning to defend the claim and send a CPR 31.14 request to Robinson Way/Hegarty LLP. I'm not sure whether this is the right thing to do? Should I also send a SAR to HSBC?

 

If someone would be able to advise I would be really grateful. I've attached the claim form for reference (with personal details deleted alond with a couple of pages of the letter before action.

 

Thanks so much

claim-deleted-details.jpg

12062012_LBP-letter-4-deleted.jpg

12062012_LBP-letter-1-deleted.jpg

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Hello and Welcome, mike.

 

I've moved this thread to the appropriate Forum, hopefully you'll get help shortly.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

If you can, please donate to this site.

Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

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Hi Mike and welcome to the legal Forum.

 

Ok first off you need to convert your uploads to PDFs they are far too small on jpg.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Yes Mike that fine a pity the content isnt a tad more euthentic.

 

Ok this is an overdraft so the procedure, you have 33 days in total (5 deemed served ) so 28....14 to Acknowledge service (AoS) and assuming you are defending the claim in its entirety another 14 to submit your defence.

 

So CPR 31.14 for Letters of Facility (You must write it as I have described) (Ie O/D agreement) and the NoA (Notice of Assignment) to the Sols (Recorded Delivery)

D.S.A.R to HSBC.

 

Check the CRA,s for any default markers/amounts/dates.

 

Keep an eye on the dates and post up any developments.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Yes Mike that fine a pity the content isnt a tad more euthentic.

 

Ok this is an overdraft so the procedure, you have 33 days in total (5 deemed served ) so 28....14 to Acknowledge service (AoS) and assuming you are defending the claim in its entirety another 14 to submit your defence.

 

So CPR 31.14 for Letters of Facility (You must write it as I have described) (Ie O/D agreement) and the NoA (Notice of Assignment) to the Sols (Recorded Delivery)

D.S.A.R to HSBC.

 

Check the CRA,s for any default markers/amounts/dates.

 

Keep an eye on the dates and post up any developments.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks for the reply Andy,

 

Sorry few Q's, still trying to get up to speed with the terminology and process. With the CPR 31.14 Letters of facility is the only item I request the NoA as stated in the particular of claim? Is it just the title "CPR 31.14 -Letters of facility" what I need to state at the top of the letter or do you know if there are any other letter templates I should reference for this? Also is the D.S.A.R the same as the usual S.A.R letter? Do you think there might be an issue getting the response back to this in the timelines required?

 

Would you advise submitting a full defence if the sols reply with the NoA? At the moment I have no records of the amounts in the OD and exact amounts of charges etc so assume that info would be returned in the D.S.A.R? Is disputing the amount owed a full defence?

 

Checked the CRA report and there is a default entry added on April 2007 last entry updated 02.01.2011.

 

If there is any other info that I deleted from the PDFs I uploaded that is important pls let me know and I'll add it to the post.

 

Thanks again Andy, much appreciated.

Mike

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Hi Mike

 

You will need to adapt the CPR 31.14 to your requirements specifically, unlike the menu version kicking around here on CAG..Just request the 2 documents and a time for compliance say 14days.

Yes DSAR is the same Data Subject Access Request this is fundermental in defending an O/D claim were charges are concerned and a need to mitigate any amount.

 

There will be a delay they have by law up to 40 days to respond but you would have an idea that if the account has been left unserviced for such a period then its pretty well sure there will/could be a considerable amount plus interest.

 

The defence will not be relient upon a response to the CPR or the SAR it will simply respond to their plea at this stage.

 

On your CRA,s is the creditor listed Robbers Way?

 

Regards

 

Andy

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pdfs merged and reduced in size

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks Andy,

 

Yes it's Robbers way registered as the creditor on my CRA for the default. I've adapted a CPR 31.14 letter to suit (I think) and copied below. If you could give it a quick once over before I send I'd really appreciate it. I've added a couple of comments in red where I wasn't sure.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Dear Sir,

 

CPR 31.14 for Letters of Facility

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

Case No.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim. Do I actually need to do this before sending the letter?

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. The Notice of Assignment

 

2. A full statement of account - itemising all interest & charges from the commencement of the alleged debt to date. They mentioned the amount and interest in the PoC so thought this was relevant? If not I'll remove.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 14 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the documents' authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours Sincerely,

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Thanks Andy,

 

Yes it's Robbers way registered as the creditor on my CRA for the default. I've adapted a CPR 31.14 letter to suit (I think) and copied below. If you could give it a quick once over before I send I'd really appreciate it. I've added a couple of comments in red where I wasn't sure.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

Dear Sir,

 

Request for information Pursuant CPR 31.14

 

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

Case No.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim. Do I actually need to do this before sending the letter?

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. Letter of Facility (OverDraft Agreement)

 

2. The Notice of Assignment

 

3. A full statement of account - itemising all interest & charges from the commencement of the alleged debt to date. They mentioned the amount and interest in the PoC so thought this was relevant? If not I'll remove.

 

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 14 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the documents' authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.

 

Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.

 

I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

:thumb:

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CPR rules of disclosure do apply PGH to Fast Track even more so, did you mean SCT?

 

Andy

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:thumb:

 

Appreciate you're help Andy, I'll get the letters sent off and will post up any developments.

 

Thanks again,

Mike

Edited by mike331
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi all,

I thought I'd give an update on the latest developments.

 

I received a letter from HSBC late last week regarding the SAR request

and the letter states that they cannot proceed with the request as the signature doesn't match what they have on records.

 

A separate form was sent along with the letter stating that I need to take to a local branch so they can verify my identity before proceeding.

This also asks for more details about the request, what it's for, which accounts and that they can't provide any information relating to PPI claims which I though was a bit strange,

surely they are required to send all data they hold?

 

Has anyone experienced this and dealt with it successfully?

 

I can go in to the branch but I'm unsure whether I have anything that I can show regarding the current account (it's over 5 years old now).

 

They have kept the postal order I sent with the initial request btw. Is the 40 day clock still ticking do you think?

 

Regarding the CPR31.14 request to the sols, still nothing back. I sent it off 2 weeks ago to the day (9.07), records show they received it on the 11th July.

 

The date on the claim form 29.06 + 5 days = 4.07 + 14 for AOS = 18.07 + 14 days to submit defence 1.08.

 

I'd really appreciate advise on next steps with this as I have limited time to get my defence in

so would like to start actioning this week to allow enough time to prepare and have ready.

 

I understand I can submit my defence online, when do you think the safe cut off date is for this?

 

Advice greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Mike

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Andy, if you're about it would be great to get your view on this?

 

Here's what I'm looking to do based on my previous post.

 

SAR response from HSBC. Try to find some document linking me with the current account and go to a branch with another form of ID. If I can't find anything then I'll print off a page from from my CRA report and use instead. I've moved a few times since this account was active btw.

 

No response to CPR31.14 - 14 days has expired now, I have to submit my defence by 01.08.2012 (so will probably submit on line next Monday latest). Shall I try to call sols tomorrow and agree an extension to submit to the courts? What are the advantages of doing so? After I've submitted my defence is that it, I can't ask/force the claimant to provide me with the docs referenced in the POC. This is frustrating because I cannot respond to their plea properly without any information. From reading similar posts an option is to put an application to the courts to force them to disclose the documents, can I do this after submitting defence or can the courts grant an extension?

 

Sorry but getting nervous about the want to take the right approach.

 

Many thanks,

Mike

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Hi Mike

 

Andy, if you're about it would be great to get your view on this?

 

Here's what I'm looking to do based on my previous post.

 

SAR response from HSBC. Try to find some document linking me with the current account and go to a branch with another form of ID. If I can't find anything then I'll print off a page from from my CRA report and use instead. I've moved a few times since this account was active btw. Yes good idea or even a copy of the mickey mouse IND statement referring to HSBC

 

No response to CPR31.14 - 14 days has expired now, I have to submit my defence by 01.08.2012 (so will probably submit on line next Monday latest). Shall I try to call sols tomorrow and agree an extension to submit to the courts? Yes ring them up and request extension of 28 days CPR 15.5 due to their none response What are the advantages of doing so?Allows more time for none complience plus you may have the DSAR through by then After I've submitted my defence is that it, I can't ask/force the claimant to provide me with the docs referenced in the POC.Yes at AQ and standard disclosure This is frustrating because I cannot respond to their plea properly without any information. From reading similar posts an option is to put an application to the courts to force them to disclose the documents, can I do this after submitting defence or can the courts grant an extension? Its an option but try CPR 15.5 first ask for written conformaton and then attach their conformation to a cover letter from yourself informing Northampton

 

Sorry but getting nervous about the want to take the right approach.

 

Many thanks,

Mike

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Hi Mike

 

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy,

 

Great advice, I'll call the sols and ask for the 28 day extension, hopefully they will be reasonable. Will post up the developments.

 

Cheers, Mike

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Hi Mike

 

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

Quick update on this. I called the number the sols listed on the claim form and it was IND. They gave me the number for the sols so called them explained that I was after an 28 extension and they said no one available to speak to and referred me back to IND, who said I needed to speak with the court. I said that they need to agree the extension in writing etc. but they seemed to be pleading ignorance. I ended up speaking to the court who said that I can either submit the form to the court requesting more time requesting the docs (and fee back) or enter a partial defence, which I'm assuming is some sort of embarrassed defence. Can they simply evade their CPR duties.

 

I call the sols tomorrow morning again and stress that I need this however going by today I'm not optimistic.

 

Any thoughts on best way to play it. I'll pay the £45 if I have to if this is the best approach. If so it would be great if you could point me in the direction of a letter I could reference?

 

Many thanks again,

 

Mike

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Hi Mike

 

The Court staff are referring to application to either disclose or strike out.The fee is £45 without an hearing but most require one so call it £80 to put this in perspective.The Staff are not qualified to give this advice and should remain impartial at all times.

 

The problem we face is that these companies issue claims like confetti, they have no paperwork to justify the claim they don't really know the court process, as you have found out today.They wont respond to a CPR request which leaves the Defendant in a very difficult position when defending. Assignment of debts should be made illegal, its a fiddle and and a tax dodge and causes misery for thousands of families.

 

So what to do, I dont normally advocate making application because sometimes it can backfire.They instruct council to turn up with the documentation and you lose and face a costs bill for the day of £1500.00.You are not suppose to defend so why would they need paperwork?

 

Its a game of bluff and the closer you take them to trial and standard disclosure ( either at AQ or SD) they will discontinue.Ok its cost them £150 to issue the claim the debts cost them peanuts but for every 1000 issued 50 may defend so quite a profitable business (and legal).

 

I personally would submit a very very vague defence ( even more than their P.o.C ) and play them at their own game but the decision is yours.

 

Regards

 

Andy

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Submit an embarassed defence, make these peoplelook unhelpful in the eyes of the court by stating they refused to respond to your legal CPR request and witheld all and any information and documentation they claim to be relying on, and add that if information eventually comes to light you reserve the right to submit an amended defence.

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Thanks for the above advise, much appreciated.

 

Andy - I agree with your points and I don't want to submit an application if disclosure is inevitable before the trial (should the case progress), I will happily play the long game.

 

I've found a defence on CAG and adapted it below, I think I may have got a little carried away, do you think as much detail is necessary? I can strip it right back.. What do you think of point 14? Would be great to get your thoughts?

 

Many thanks,

Mike

 

 

DEFENCE

 

 

1. I, XXX of XXXXXXXXXXXX am The Defendant in this action and make the following statement as my defence to the claim made by Robinson Way Ltd.

 

2. Except where otherwise mentioned in this defence, I neither admit nor deny any allegation made in The Claimant’s Particulars of Claim and put the Claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

3. The Claimant’s Particulars of Claim are vague and fail to disclose any cause of action; they appear to be an abuse of the process in that they fail to deal with the basic rules of pleading in accordance with the civil procedure rules. (Even allowing for the constraints of the bulk issue system)

 

4. No documents supporting the claim in the particulars have been offered which the Defendant needs to establish what agreement it is that this action is based upon and so the Claimant's claim appears without merit.

 

5. On receipt of the claim form The Defendant sent a CPR 31.14 request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account which form the basis of this claim.

 

7. It has been confirmed via the Royal Mail website that the above letter was received and signed for.

 

8. To date no response has been received from the Claimant.

 

9. The Defendant telephoned the solicitor (Hegarty LLP - acting on behalf of the Claimant) on 26.07.2012 to request an extension of 28 days to submit a defence under CPR 15.5, the solicitors referred The Defendant back to IND (the phone number listed on the claim form for the solicitors) who subsequently informed The Defendant that this request needed to be discussed with the court directly.

 

10. As a result, the claim as pleaded does not contain sufficient particulars to permit me to file a properly particularised and pleaded defence. I am at a disadvantage to respond to this claim and to allow me to properly respond to the claim. Consequently, I deny all allegations on the particulars of claim and put The Claimant to strict proof thereof.

 

10. It is denied that I have an agreement with Robinson Way Ltd.

 

11. If, which is not admitted, such an agreement exists, the precise terms and date of any such agreement are not admitted. I do not have in my possession any such agreement and am not therefore able to comment thereon. The Claimant is put to strict proof as to the date and terms of such agreement.

 

12. Without admission that any cause of action is shown by The Claimant it is denied that I am indebted to The Claimant as alleged or at all.

 

13. If The Claimant is The Assignee and there has been an Assignment, The Claimant fails to plead as such and it is contended that no such Notice of Assignment pursuant to the LoP Act 1925 has ever been received. Without a Notice of Assignment, The Assignment is merely equitable and The Claimant is put to strict proof to disclose this and proof that this claim can commence in their own name.

 

14. AND the Defendant

 

Seeks an order that The Claimant’s action is struck out or otherwise is dismissed on the grounds that any claim cannot succeed.

 

i. Alternatively if the court decides not to strike out The Claimant’s case, it is requested that The Court orders full disclosure of the requested documents pursuant to the civil procedure Rules.

 

ii. The Defendant respectfully asks the permission of The Court to amend this defence if or when The Claimant provides full disclosure of the requested documents and allows inspection of the original documents.

 

 

 

 

Statement of Truth

 

I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true.

 

 

Signed

 

XXXXX.

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