Cobbetts Cpr part 18 request/CPR part 16.4.1

[stevepm]

I will add my name to the list. I have already sent a complaint to the Judge and will complain ti the law society

[Markf]

Hi all,

 

I sent my CPR18 response, Allocation Questionnaire and Draft order to My county court on the 1st of March. I phoned them about a week after posting it because I recieved a second AQ and they confirmed not to send the second one in as it is a duplicate and they have recieved the first one.

I have not had any communication since though, and it is now the 22nd. The draft order was the one that can be found on this site giving Natwest 14 days after they are served with the order I presume they would have been served the order roughly a week a after i posted it to the court so I presume their 14 days is up? Do i need to send anything to the court. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks

[Dollybird]

Hi, I have just received this morning a defence from Cobbetts in pursuant of CPR Part 18 saying that the particulars of claim do not disclose reasonable grounds etc.

 

What should I do now, I feel very nervous, have I worded my claim wrong? The 28 days was up on Friday and I thought I was going to get a judgement, but this will now protract this further.

 

Advice please someone

[Movingon]

Hi, I have just received this morning a defence from Cobbetts in pursuant of CPR Part 18 saying that the particulars of claim do not disclose reasonable grounds etc.

 

What should I do now, I feel very nervous, have I worded my claim wrong? The 28 days was up on Friday and I thought I was going to get a judgement, but this will now protract this further.

 

Advice please someone

 

Do you have a thread of your own? We cannot possibly advise you whether your POC is wrong, without seeing it...

[progenic7]

dolly,

 

do you have a copy of your N1 form you filed at court (or mcol), and what are the solicitors dealing (ie cobbetts) ?

this is fairly standard fodder in relation to the Cag PoC (which personally speaking i do not think brings enough detail to the fore in it, but thats just me)

i shouldnt worry about it too much, as like i said its a standard request from the defence, for them to have a better idea of what your claim is about in legal terms.

So they are simply asking you to better particularise the details in the claim, in a legally recognisable way.

post your claim form if you can, and we'll see what we can do ok

 

and dont worry this is no biggy

 

Johnny

[Dollybird]

HI do have a copy of the NI form, which I assume is the Notice of Issue, also when I filed the particulars of claim, I copied it from the template supplied here and just put in the bits relevant to me. so I am assuming it is ok., the only thing I think I didn't do was calculate the daily interest rate. Is that going to matter, also at that stage I do not think I submitted the spreadsheet showing the charges with the MCOL claim.

 

So am I right in now thinking I just respond to Cobbetts with the standard CPR 18 reply and copy a letter to the court?

[progenic7]

HI do have a copy of the NI form, which I assume is the Notice of Issue, also when I filed the particulars of claim, I copied it from the template supplied here and just put in the bits relevant to me. so I am assuming it is ok., the only thing I think I didn't do was calculate the daily interest rate. Is that going to matter, also at that stage I do not think I submitted the spreadsheet showing the charges with the MCOL claim.

 

So am I right in now thinking I just respond to Cobbetts with the standard CPR 18 reply and copy a letter to the court?

 

dolly hi again,

 

you certainly want to supply the defence with a copy of your spreadsheet, checking the charges are correct and up to date. Double check your N1 to see if it seems somewhat ambiguous ie can the defence actually work out what your saying and why in a legal sense ?

Double check everything again and get all your papers in order, and if your happy that the N1 you filed makes a good legally recognisable claim, then just tell them that you dont need to further plead any more at this stage.

but you must atleast submit anything you wish to rely on..ie a spreadsheet of charges is a big one

 

Johnny

[Movingon]

The N1 is the original claim form containing your Particulars of Claim; not the Notice of Issue.

[LLou]

Hi there

 

I too have received my defence from cobblers also with part 18 request for further info and clarification. I've checked the white book but can't find the part where it states part 18 is not relevant to small claims track - it is not listed in part 27 "extent to which other parts apply" as not being relevant. Could you point me in the right direction please?

 

They are cheeky - 'specially asking for info from the contract written by THEIR Client!!

 

Many thanks

LLou

[LLou]

Ooops just found it! Sorry for being dim

[mletizz]

Hey Guys,

 

Just wanted to let you know, i decided to put a request in writing for the charges back from when i first started the claim to now and guess what, THEY PAID UP!!!

I told them i had nothing to lose and would not cancel the court hearing until i got full charges refunded back to me, i was due to go to court on the 10th and i got an email on the 5th and a cheque this morning.

Just thought i would let you all know, and i huge thank you to all of you that have helped me claim against my bank THANKSSSSSSSSSS

GOOD LUCK

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

in need of yet another question answered, i got my check in the post and i have not yet cancelled the court, i have placed the check in the bank, i have not yet signed and returned the slip that cobbets have asked me too.

what i want to know is...........

 

Can i write back to cobbets and demand my charges back from october when i put the claim in, until the date on the letter/check (nearly 900quid)

can i say to them i will not sign the form and i am still going to go to court until all charges have been paid up to date???

or can i not do this???

 

please help

[alimehmet]

Hey Guys,

 

Just wanted to let you know, i decided to put a request in writing for the charges back from when i first started the claim to now and guess what, THEY PAID UP!!!

I told them i had nothing to lose and would not cancel the court hearing until i got full charges refunded back to me, i was due to go to court on the 10th and i got an email on the 5th and a cheque this morning.

Just thought i would let you all know, and i huge thank you to all of you that have helped me claim against my bank THANKSSSSSSSSSS

GOOD LUCK

 

well done, i too got a cheque for £12.375 from Cobbetts.

[Roscopicotrain]

Hi, I received my Defence & CPR part 18 request today from Cobbetts. I can send the standard letter from the forum plus a copy to the COurt, but I'd like to check some points if anyone can help me?

 

1) They state that I haven't sent the defendant a copy of the list of charges as part of the Claim, when I did. I also sent a list to the Court as recommended in the forums. I kept the Recorded Delivery receipts as proof. I also have a letter from Stuart Higley of NatWest acknowledging receipt of my letter with the breakdown of charges - if it wasn't enclosed (which it obviously was) then he should have stated then.

 

2) They then go on to say that I am "put to strict proof of each charge" and need to identify for each charge, the date, amount and description. This worries me slightly, as I prepared my list from Martin Lewis's calculator, and although it lists each charge, the date debited, amount of interest and total there is no description against any of the charge entries. Do I need to re-do the spreadsheet and send it back with descriptions?

 

3) Coincidentally, I received an offer in the post too this morning, for nearly all the amount of the charges I'm claiming for (£4,446) but no interest (£1,458.50). I don't want to accept, as I think I should press for the whole amount. I had to pay £250 to file the calim which I think they should pay too. Should I just write back "Without Prejudice" declining the offer?

 

Thanks so much for your help!

[Movingon]

Hiya see my replies inline below.

 

Hi, I received my Defence & CPR part 18 request today from Cobbetts. I can send the standard letter from the forum plus a copy to the COurt, but I'd like to check some points if anyone can help me?

 

1) They state that I haven't sent the defendant a copy of the list of charges as part of the Claim, when I did. I also sent a list to the Court as recommended in the forums. I kept the Recorded Delivery receipts as proof. I also have a letter from Stuart Higley of NatWest acknowledging receipt of my letter with the breakdown of charges - if it wasn't enclosed (which it obviously was) then he should have stated then.

 

This is yet more proof that this is a bullying tactic and/or a copy'n'paste from other claims. Ignore it as you can prove in court that it was received - and the Court have a copy.

 

2) They then go on to say that I am "put to strict proof of each charge" and need to identify for each charge, the date, amount and description. This worries me slightly, as I prepared my list from Martin Lewis's calculator, and although it lists each charge, the date debited, amount of interest and total there is no description against any of the charge entries. Do I need to re-do the spreadsheet and send it back with descriptions?

 

No - in court just show the Bank Statements which show the charges - these are proof as they come from the Bank.

 

3) Coincidentally, I received an offer in the post too this morning, for nearly all the amount of the charges I'm claiming for (£4,446) but no interest (£1,458.50). I don't want to accept, as I think I should press for the whole amount. I had to pay £250 to file the calim which I think they should pay too. Should I just write back "Without Prejudice" declining the offer?

 

In my opinion you should respond accepting their kind offer as partial settlement but make your intent to pursue the remainder clear. Turning down an offer would be seen as obstructive to the Court and may prejudice your entire claim.

 

Thanks so much for your help!

 

You're welcome

a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a.a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a.

[Roscopicotrain]

Hi Tom, Thanks for your reply. I presume I just send the template letter to Cobbetts and a copy to the Court?

 

Should I accept their offer "Without Prejudice" to my claim?

 

Thanks again!

[Movingon]

Hi Tom, Thanks for your reply. I presume I just send the template letter to Cobbetts and a copy to the Court?

 

Should I accept their offer "Without Prejudice" to my claim?

 

Thanks again!

 

Yes send it to Cobbetts - the court don't need to know.

 

"Without Prejudice" means that you won't be able to refer to it in Court - so no - don't. You might want to show the Judge that you have been very reasonable by accepting their partial offer.

[Roscopicotrain]

OK thanks again Tom!

[Roscopicotrain]

Tom - just a thought - if I do accept their offer as you suggest, do I need to notify the Court and Cobbetts, or do I just continue on with the full claim?

 

Cheers.

[Movingon]

Tom - just a thought - if I do accept their offer as you suggest, do I need to notify the Court and Cobbetts, or do I just continue on with the full claim?

 

Cheers.

 

Just notify Cobbetts that you're accepting it as a PARTIAL offer. The Court don't need to know. When the claim is settled IN FULL, then you can notify the court, and when the money is cleared funds in your account you can discontinue.

[progenic7]

roscopicotrain,

 

sorry stone but in this case (knowing cobbetts) i think that acepting the offer at this stage would be a bad move. If you do accept the offer then effectivley the defence have paid you the "fees" back in total, so when you get to court (which if you accept you certainly will go to court) the defence will immediatly tell the judge they have paid the charges back in full and the claimant is trying to claim an extortionate amount of interest, (if its contractual interest of course)

 

The judge will then press you on this point and expect some ground breaking argument over the CI issue, if on the other hand the interest you mention in s69 8% interest, then it would seem very strange of the defence to do this, as this would still leave them in the position of proving the costs in court, or atleast admitting to the judge that they had paid you the charges back.

 

Personally i would decline the offer and hold out for a few more days and you will get full settlement unconditionally very shortly, remember that to date not one single bank has actually defended a case in court and i dont think you would be any different.

 

On the point of the court seeing it as a bad move if you decline the offer, then i also dont agree with that either. All the small claims books tell you that doing that is totally fine, as clearly there is only one satisfactory outcome for you (and thats full payment). Further to that the offer that was made to you would almost certainly be a "without prejudice letter" meaning it cannot be referred to until after the hearing.

if you accept the offer and your claiming CI, then you will almost certainly end up in court to argue the issue of the CI (the only part of the claim left)

 

If its s69 your claiming then its a very strange move by the defence as they know full well, they will have to pay that plus the court fees, but even still i would hold out and dont lose your bottle, as they will pay in full very shortly

 

best of luck

 

sorry to go against what you said stone

[Movingon]

Hey no need to apologise to me LOL. This is all about opinion until it sits in front of a Judge; however the arguments RE: CI have been well thought out and I don't see that it would be an issue to argue it. Also, the bank would probably bring their letter to the Court's attention ANYWAY 'cos they're b'stards like that.

 

Can you cite any source for your comments regarding it being OK to turn down an offer? All the Great Teachings from the Holy CAG Spirits so far have been to accept partial offers in the past.

 

Also, in this case, I don't see any functional difference between accepting as partial (but pursuing the rest) and turning it down... in EITHER case the Defendant will have to consider the option of going to court and fighting the remainder of the claim because it refers to CI.

 

As I said though, it's down to opinion and the balls of the claimant; there are several schools of thought on this and I'm happy with my stance and its defendability - I can also see your argument and it has a certain defendability of its own... I just don't agree

[progenic7]

stone

 

i have to take up issue with this still further

 

ok i hear what you say about accepting as partial in cirtain circumstances, but in my opinion in the case of CI, thats certainly one that you dont accept the "charges" back as partial.

Why not, because on a CI claim if you do that, then the defence are almost 99% sure to defend and therefore push the now fragile claimant into the court room, with a bulldog of a barrister, who will duly rip into shreads (in a legal sense of course)

I see no need for this whatsoever, when if the claimant holds out just a few more days then the defence will 100% certainly make an offer in full and unconditionally, therefore causing minimum stress to the claimant and allowing for 100% success and payment.

If you go into court on a CI only claim theres a 50/50 chance of winning, depending on judge, time, place, day ect. But one things for sure its not a sure thing, and the defence are 100% going to show up. Causing another day off work, stress, chance of losing ect ect.

 

If you accept partial on a CI in my opinion all is lost and the defence then totally have the upper hand, its just like the tricks they play on a current account by slipping the "fees" into the account hours before the hearing, thus leaving claimant to argue the CI issue. And lets face it alot of people are not so confident of their own arguments especially in court.

 

As authority to my claims of the judge wont see it as being unreasonable if you turn down an offer far less than your claim (or even 1 pence short to be fair) Patricia Pearls excellent book "small claims procedue..a practical guide", "law packs..small claims self help kit", i think its even mentioned in the PD under CPR that if the defendant offers anything less than full amount, then the claimant is perfectly ok to deline this without being thought of as unreasonable, as the only acceptable outcome for the claimant is 100% full payment of claim.

 

put simply stone if the offer is turned down then roscopicotrain will get full payout days before the hearing 100% sure. If they accept partial on a CI case then they stand a good chance of losing the CI part.

The defence will not risk going into court and trying to argue the CI but not the charges as the first thing the judge will want to see is proof of their costs, they simply will not do this.

 

now on a s69 8% case then thats totally different and to accept a partial payment is fine because at the end of the day the claimant wont have to argue anything, the judge will award it as default, thus no stress, thus no chance of failure.

[sg51bmw]

Hi all

 

very interested in Tom's comments regarding obtrusive behaviour if turning down an offer from the bank, we did just that, refused the offer, as I am under the impression a full and final settlement offer which is less than the amount owed is a compromise but is not a just resolution to what the banks are doing - let's face it we are doing this because we believe the banks have capitilised profits through unknowing customers accepting fees and charges on their accounts which are illegal. So does Tom think that we should accept the offers from the Banks/Solicitors representing them? Or it may go against us if it proceeds to court? If so, does this not go against the theme of advice provided throughout this advice group????

 

Confused in Devon- sg51bmw:confused:

[Movingon]

Like I said above I was always told to accept partial offers as partial offers but to continue to pursue the rest; personally I don't see the difference between turning down an offer which doesn't include contractural interest, and accepting it as partial settlement; either way I would expect the bank to settle the claim in its entirety and not go to court.

 

However progenic disagrees and says that there is a fundamental difference and that in cases where a partial offer excludes contractural interest it is better to refuse the offer - in fact he says that refusing any partial offer is fine because the purpose of your claim was to obtain full settlement and nothing less will suffice for you without a Court ruling. It's entirely up to you which method you pursue as it is you taking any risk that is involved; you just have to do your research and get professional advice if you think you need it.

[sg51bmw]

Thanks for the reply, I agree to a point, "bird in the hand" and then pursuing the remainder from that point, however, when we refused under those terms, i.e " not in full and final settlement and not accepting the caveats attached to no longer pursue further claims" the money was out of our account within 5 minutes of arriving - long story......

 

However my point is, I think you have to go all out for the "full" amount regardless, as it is an academic/moot point about accepting a partial repayment, the banks will just yank it out of your account if you don't play their game, accept it as final payment and don't pursue them further, or they will pursue the convuleted route of Cobbetts threats/letters and awaiting a court date etc. (In my experience so far) before paying up the full amount (not experienced this point yet however based on numerous CAG members to date)

 

I see where you are coming from, however charges/interest and the 8% court set rate is surely worth fighting for - even if you do become the test case, as long as you have done your homework, have followed the set process and protocols the ball lands very firmly in the banks "court" to defend the charges and justify the whole system they have employed...

 

N'est Pas?