Letting Agent refusing £100/month towards arrears

[kirky]

Unfortunately, I am guarantor for my daughter and her now ex-husband for their rent. They split up in the New Year with him going to find a flat and she living there until she got her council house. She left in a hurry and probably left a mess, but not necessarily deliberately damaged the place. She also left owing just over 2 months rent (£450/month).

I got a note from the Agent stuffed in my post box one day about a month later telling me I was liable as guarantor. I spoke to my daughter and told her to get this sorted, along with her ex....I heard nothing more so assumed it was taken care of.

Now, I get a letter about a futher 2 months later to tell me if I don't pay the full amount he will take me to court. He considers me a "soft target" (his words), as I am a home owner and in employment.

I offered £500 via credit card immediately from the £1094 bill to settle my responsibility in the matter and gave address details for both my daughter and her ex, asking him to chase them for the remainder. I did ask him to advise me in writing whether this was acceptable prior to taking any further action, to give me a chance to respond. No reply as yet.

It has taken me 6 years to rebuild my credit history after having bad debt following the break down of my previous marriage, I cannot afford to have it damaged again at my age (53, going on 54). I was out of work for several months following redundancy and have just begun new employment, so I have not been paid yet and have no savings left.

My daughter has offered him £100/month, but he wants £500. Neither of us can afford that - even between us. She does not get any financial support from her ex and if she takes him for some, he says he will jack his job in (he's an alcoholic too) She is only on a temp contract and could lose her income at any time...I am on probation at my new job. What a mess.

On top of all this he is listing the following:

 

1. £1,094.00 for rent.

2. £210 for the 7 abortive visits (£25 + VAT each) that I made trying to get hold of you, your Mother and xxxx.

3. £70 that it cost me to get someone to follow you back to xxxx after your xxx Class one Monday evening.

4. £440 for the cost of clearing the house and garden of furniture, rubbish and effects.

5. £120 for the lock changes (£60 each - they had to be drilled out as we didn't have spare keys and you never returned the ones in your possession).

6. I do not yet have a quote for cleaning but would imagine that this will be around the £200 mark.

7. I await photographs from the original Agent but would imagine that you have altered the decoration of the property (I would have expected it to be magnolia walls with white ceilings and woodwork). While I would expect some normal wear and tear and would make allowances for that, the condition that you left the property in goes way beyond that and it will need complete re-decoration - I have a quote of £700 for this work.

8. The previous Agent advises me that at least two of the floor coverings (kitchen and living room) were brand new when you moved in - they are both damaged and will need replacement at a cost of £400.

 

Can anyone advise me of our rights in all this? His refusal of £100/month seems unreasonable - she really can't afford that much anyway with two kids and no maintenance payments. Also, the whole list of add-ons seems way over the top...

I am so scared I am going to end up being in more bad debt.

[kirky]

Told my husband (not her dad) about the problem, as I feel I can't hide it. I got lots of loud "told you so's" for this and now I have been sent to Coventry by him.

I really need some help to sort it - have made an on-line application for a personal loan with my bank, but as I am being sent on a training course and won't be at home to sign any agreement until next Friday I just feel it will all be too late, even though I explained that to the guy in an email this morning - and that's if they give me the loan. I am hoping he isn't asking me for all the multitude of things he is asking her to pay for - if he does, does he have a right to? I thought as guarantor the extent of my responsibility was the rent, not all that stuff? I am terrified that this will be the end of my marriage and my life.

I just feel like packing a bag and walking away into the distance. I never thought I would be in this situation ever again after all I have been through.

My own stupid fault I know, but I was just trying to help.

[angel2412]

Hi

I am no expert in this situation but have you been to see a solicitor because from the way the landlord has written this letter it looks like he is trying to frighten you into paying .This cant be right to treat a person like this,as I have said I am no expert but I would go and have a free word with a solicitor or the CAB or even debt advise which can be found online the government one they don't charge.Sorry that's all I can think of,that is what I would do.I was always told when I was in debt if you offer to pay something they cant take you to court because you are not refusing to pay so they have no case.Debt advise will guide you I found them really good .

Let us all know what happens keep your chin up mate dont let them beat you down.

Regards Lou

[kirky]

Thanks Lou....he is only giving me until Monday to sort this - I am not going to be in the same county then, as I have to go on a week's training course for my new job. He's threatening bailiffs and all sorts. I have no chance to do anything before the deadline. Nothing's open.

Might not come back from my course. Just stay in London in a cardboard box. Can't believe my own child has put me in this situation.

[The Carpet Cleaners]

Stop panicking.............................

The LL cannot do anything to you before monday.......

Nor on monday..........

Nor by friday next week.......

 

He has to get together a full and final total before he can even think about doing anything...

Then he has to give you the invoice of said full amount, and legally he has to give you a period of time in which to pay, usually 7 or 14 days..

 

Then if you do not pay, he has to send you a letter before action giving you 7 or 14 days again to pay or he will start legal action..

 

Then he has to start legal action... Usually with money claim on line, this then takes 4 - 6 weeks usually for the court summons to get to you, and then you have the chance to state your case, and maybe even counter claim.

 

This is now 6 - 8 weeks in the future from monday.

 

If it gets to court and the judge finds that you have offered to pay £100 per month, then likely as not he will suggest that the LL accept that and not issue a County Court Judgement.

 

This is 2 months minimum from now.

 

If then the judge says that you have to pay it, you are allowed to fill in a form explaining your finances, and then an amount that you can afford to pay each month...

If you do this bit right you can get it so that you have £1 per month spare after your essential outgoings, and the LL has to accept the offer if the judge decrees it.

 

THEN and ONLY THEN if you default on the payments can he send any bailiffs round...... This is now October November time......

 

So ..............

 

As I said at the begining DON'T PANIC.

Ask the LL for a full and final invoice, then offer £100 per month, if he says no pay it anyway, and then he will find it hard to refuse it if you tell him that you know the procedure from now on, and he CANNOT BULLY YOU ANY MORE.

[kirky]

OMG, thank you so much x

[kirky]

I sent him this:

 

It seems that we need to get on the legal trail and do it right.

 

First of all I need a full and final invoice, then give me time to inspect it prior to payment - usually the law allows me 7 - 14 days minimum.

 

If I then dispute the amount and refuse to pay, you must then send me (and the other parties) a letter before action, which will give us a further 7 - 14 days to pay before you can take legal action.

 

If after that time it does actually go to court and the judge discovers the offer we have all made - mine of £1100 lump sum and Natalie's of £100/month, then decides to throw your claim out of court and state that you must accept our offer - there will be no County Court Judgement and we will not be liable for court costs.

 

If after that point we fail to maintain payments - then and only then will you be able to action Bailiffs and the like.

 

Even if the court decides that you are right in pursuing for more than we have offered, we will still have the opportunity to complete a form (per person) explaining our finances, and it is likely you will get less than the money offered at the moment.

 

So - despite your valiant efforts on behalf of your client to extract large sums immediately, alas you have to follow the letter of the law in these circumstances. I also believe the judge will take into account the bullying tactics you have deployed and the total disregard for formal procedure in this case.

 

Once the invoice is in our possession - and I respectfully ask that we are all included and given opportunity to see a full and final invoice at the same time - we can discuss repayment terms.

 

If you wish to pursue court action, then you will have to follow procedure. I have been reasonable in my offer of repayment, as has Natalie, yet you have refused to accept the very reasonable offer of a lump sum followed by £100/month schedule.

 

I look forward to receiving your invoice in full and final form - in writing and in the post, not via email - by the end of next week.

 

I guess this is what you were alluding to?

Thank you again for your advice x

[kirky]

I have received this back:

 

I have already given you a letter before action - that is what you had last week - I am not obliged to do anything further as any disputed sums could be argued about in Court.

 

I would urge you to proceed cautiously in moving into a Court Action

 

1. Your individual liability is for the entire amount - it says so in the Agreement that you signed and no Judge is going to prejudice that position by making us accept an inferior one simply because you may have made an offer of settlement.

 

2. If a Judge does rule that you may pay in stages or monthly sums etc. - why do you think that you will not get a Judgement Debt against your name? - that would be precisely what is made - a Court Judgement and the longer it takes for the debt to be paid in full, the longer your Credit File will be blighted by an active CCJ. I had hoped that you would realise this and that it would encourage all of you to talk to me sensibly about settling this by agreement without it going to Court - once it does go there your lives will change for the worse in so many ways because it is a matter of public record and will appear on all sorts of things - job applications, banks, finance applications, phone contracts even your ability to swap electricity provider to get a better deak will potentially be jeopardised.

 

3. With respect, you haven't actually offered any money because you don't physically have it to offer - you may have applied to borrow it but the outcome of that application is far from certain and although it is of interest, at this stage thats all it is. Natalie has promised monthly payments before - I'm still waiting for them so forgive my sceptisism, when you've got some cash and you can make an immediate payment then and only then, will your offer be real.

 

4. Why should we accept a lesser sum than is due? Do you dispute the fact that xxxx hasn't paid her rent since December? - a Judge would be asking why it has taken you all this time to suddenly query the veracity of my claim since I contacted you month's ago about it. Do you also dispute the fact that a vast quantity of material has been left at the property, or that the house and garden are indescribably dirty or that carpets have been ruined and decoration altered or damaged? If so, what part of this do you dispute and show me your evidence - you already have mine.

 

5. I do not have to provide you with invoices - quotes are sufficient and I will post these to you as you have requested.

 

6. It is only fair to warn you that I used to do this for a living and so any formal requirements will be adhered to to the letter. I haven't bullied you - far from it I can show that I've bent over backwards to engage all three of you in dialogue in an effort to come to an arrangement out of Court and that you have previously ignored the fact that i made personal visits to your home and that xxxx moved without leaving a forwarding address and then refused to reply to emails and telephone calls until I located her new whereabouts. This information would be taken into account by a Judge and he would want to know why liabilities were deliberately ignored and/or avoided.

 

I'm guessing that you've quickly done an internet search and have found some information about Court Claims but you haven't got to grips with the information and you clearly don't understand how it all works.

 

I would strongly urge you to avoid pushing me into issuing a Court Claim - I haven't mentioned claiming interest on the money or the continuing loss of rent incurred by the Landlord since Natalie left because the property is unoccupiable ... but these would be added to a Court Claim to make it as comprehensive as possible - at the moment, they do not form part of what I am asking for.

 

Advice please?

Edited August 2, 2013 by citizenB

[The Carpet Cleaners]

1. Your individual liability is for the entire amount - it says so in the Agreement that you signed and no Judge is going to prejudice that position by making us accept an inferior one simply because you may have made an offer of settlement.

 

when you signed the guarantor agreement, was it deeded? ie did you receive a copy of the AST and was your signature witnessed?

 

2. If a Judge does rule that you may pay in stages or monthly sums etc. - why do you think that you will not get a Judgement Debt against your name? - that would be precisely what is made - a Court Judgement and the longer it takes for the debt to be paid in full, the longer your Credit File will be blighted by an active CCJ. I had hoped that you would realise this and that it would encourage all of you to talk to me sensibly about settling this by agreement without it going to Court - once it does go there your lives will change for the worse in so many ways because it is a matter of public record and will appear on all sorts of things - job applications, banks, finance applications, phone contracts even your ability to swap electricity provider to get a better deak will potentially be jeopardised.

 

Whilst that is sort of true, You would get a CCJ if the judge ruled that you were liable and had to pay, but first and foremost the judge should get you all into court and get you to discuss it and come to an agreement, this would not get you a CCJ and CCJ's do not have half the effect these days as they did 6 or 7 years ago. They also do not show up on job applications or to employers unless you are in a positive vetted employment area.

 

3. With respect, you haven't actually offered any money because you don't physically have it to offer - you may have applied to borrow it but the outcome of that application is far from certain and although it is of interest, at this stage thats all it is. Natalie has promised monthly payments before - I'm still waiting for them so forgive my sceptisism, when you've got some cash and you can make an immediate payment then and only then, will your offer be real.

 

If you offered them the £500 as you stated earlier and the rest to be paid at £100 per month, whilst they are not legally obliged to accept, they would be foolish as a judge will see this offer, however you should actually back this up with the money. #There is no need for them to insult you though.

 

4. Why should we accept a lesser sum than is due? Do you dispute the fact that xxxx hasn't paid her rent since December? - a Judge would be asking why it has taken you all this time to suddenly query the veracity of my claim since I contacted you month's ago about it. Do you also dispute the fact that a vast quantity of material has been left at the property, or that the house and garden are indescribably dirty or that carpets have been ruined and decoration altered or damaged? If so, what part of this do you dispute and show me your evidence - you already have mine.

 

have they actually showed you some evidence? If it goes to court they have to prove that it was your daughter who caused any damage,so was there an inventory when she and her ex moved in? If not then once again LL/agent will have a hard time proving anything.

 

Was there a deposit paid?? there seems to have been no mention of this, so if so where is it? and what has it been used for?

 

5. I do not have to provide you with invoices - quotes are sufficient and I will post these to you as you have requested.

 

This is true but where did you ask for invoices?? you only asked for an inovoice for YOU to have a full total that was believed to be owed.

 

6. It is only fair to warn you that I used to do this for a living and so any formal requirements will be adhered to to the letter. I haven't bullied you - far from it I can show that I've bent over backwards to engage all three of you in dialogue in an effort to come to an arrangement out of Court and that you have previously ignored the fact that i made personal visits to your home and that xxxx moved without leaving a forwarding address and then refused to reply to emails and telephone calls until I located her new whereabouts. This information would be taken into account by a Judge and he would want to know why liabilities were deliberately ignored and/or avoided.

 

What tone were these personal visits? you have the argument that they were harassing and threatening, if this person wants to come to an agreement out of court, then why have they not accepted your offer? Who is this person wishing to take to court? You cannot be held responsible for yoru daughter ignoring emails and telephone calls.

 

I would strongly urge you to avoid pushing me into issuing a Court Claim - I haven't mentioned claiming interest on the money or the continuing loss of rent incurred by the Landlord since Natalie left because the property is unoccupiable ... but these would be added to a Court Claim to make it as comprehensive as possible - at the moment, they do not form part of what I am asking for.

 

once more a threat, if it goes to court the LL will be able to claim interest this is true, but if the AST was finalised and terminated then there is no way that loss of rent as a form of compensation will be allowed, as the costings to repair any damage is what is being sued for now, compensation in the form of loss or rent would be claimable however if your daughter just did a bunk and the AST is still legally operative.

 

There is still nothing that can be done very quickly, so you should go on your course and see what is happening when you get back. No one can call at your door and take things......

[kirky]

Hi again

Thank you for your support.

 

In response:

 

1. I can't find a copy of the agreement I signed (is that what an AST is?) - have emailed this guy today to ask him to send a copy.

 

2. I understand that side of things, he is just being a bully!

 

3. I offered immediate payment of £500 by card over the phone - he says he won't accept card payment. I explained I couldn't get in to his branch as I work out of town and am not available in office hours.

 

4. He wrote to me and sent a copy of the rent statement. I can only go on that as it is the only "bill" he has sent me. The balance is £1094 and that was what I assumed the final balance was.

I haven't seen any evidence of how the property was left, what was in it - nor had I visited there for many months, so can't comment on what it was like while they were actually living in it. When I see my grandchildren, they normally come here as I babysit, or my daughter drops by with them.

As far as the contact he claims to have had with me "months ago" - I recall a telephone call, which was quite threatening then - I put the phone down on him and got on to my daughter and her husband immediately. They promised it would be dealt with. Not being psychic I had no idea it wasn't being dealt with until the next phone call about a week ago, which I returned and got no response to - then the letter landed in my post box with the rent statement a few days later:

"Further to my earlier letter (not had one) and subsequent note (compliment slip in my letter box to say he had called), I enclose a copy letter sent to xxxx today (not attached) and would draw your attention to the fact that I will put you all into Court if the mater isn't settled amicably.

 

In this respect, I gather that you are a home owner and that you have recently started a new job - all of which is good news as you may be the softest target when it comes down to extracting the money that is owed. (don't know how he knows about me starting a new job?)

 

I would respectfully (ha ha, that's a laugh) suggest that you speak with xxx and revert to me with some realistic proposals before the end of the week."

 

As you can see - he's not a very nice guy. I also queried the deposit, because I remember lending the money for that too - he said it would be deducted from the final account. He mentioned a figure of £350, but I am sure it was £550 - it's normally one month's rent plus £100. I need to speak to my daughter to see the evidence of this and where it was invested.

 

5. No, I didn't ask for invoices - as you said, I only asked for a full and final invoice so I knew what was being demanded.

 

6. I have never seen this man - as I said he left a compliment slip in my letter box one day several months ago - he didn't make an appointment, so how can he charge me for a visit that was unsolicited? I don't know where he gets his reference to multiple visits from - unless he is including any that he might have made to my daughter and/or her husband.

 

Not sure what an AST is? I don't know if she did a bunk or whether she gave notice - again I need to ask her that.

 

Thank you again for your kind support and advice. I will wait and see if he sends me a copy of the agreement I signed. I don't recall it being witnessed, but it was several years ago.

 

Having a really bad weekend and wondering how much I will be able to concentrate on my course. What with this and now my own husband not talking to me I just feel cr@p

:ohwell:

[Surfer01]

Was the deposit secured?

[kirky]

Could you please explain what you mean by that?

[The Carpet Cleaners]

What surfer means is: was the deposit protected in one of the government schemes?

[kirky]

ah. Not sure yet, waiting to hear from my daughter

[Surfer01]

If it wasn't you may have a 'get out' clause.

[kirky]

oh, I see.....will wait to see what she says.

[assisted blonde]

This really is a horrible situation for you as it should be your daughter and her ex who are dealing with it, I agree that the LL dosnt sound very nice and shouldnt be making threats, although he may have every right to be p***** off about his O/S rent, damage to the property etc. I would assume though thathe no more wants to go to court than you do so if your loan comes through and payment of xxxx amount will clear you of all further liability (make sure a doc is signed to state this) then pay him and let your daughter deal with the rest of the issues. That may sound harsh but your daughter is an adult and at some point must take some responsibility for the situation.

[kirky]

Believe me I have learnt that lesson well. I think it is going to be the only way to teach her. I just hope I can pay the rent arrears and be done with it.

:/

[kirky]

Hi - I can't see anywhere in the tenancy agreement that the deposit was in one of the Government schemes. Should I ask him for evidence of it?

 

Also, my signature was witnessed, but I don't remember anyone being there - I thought I did it at home and sent it back with my daughter, but can't remember.

 

Also, the deposit states £450, not the £350 that he referred to in one of his emails.

 

Advice please guys...it's been a bad, bad week. Had to go to London - delayed on way out for over 3 hrs. Suffered carbon monoxide poisoning on first night. Been poorly all week. Got a phone call to say my car was a write off (Bulgarian came out of a side road into me 10 mins after I bought it after having looked the wrong way to check for traffic). Whiplash injury is getting worse. Just in dire need of some good news somewhere.

[kirky]

I sent a recorded letter to the actual owner and explained that his agent had been offered the full amount of the outstanding rent (I came up with the cash) and that he was refusing to itemise any other additional costs etc. I asked the owner to intervene and ask the agent to engage to avoid court. Since then I have heard nothing further. I think I will send a letter (instead of an email) - recorded of course - to the letting agent and cc the owner in, asking where the full and final invoice is so that this situation can be resolved...is that a good idea? At least then I will have proof that I am trying to come to some agreement about full and final settlement.

??

[transient]

I think you need to stop engaging with him and sending him whay is being said here verbatim.

 

The advice being given is to help you and good advice it is. I suggest you slow down and do not respond to him straight away and if he contacts you then post here what has been said and the likes of me and others will advise. Stop forcing the issue and most of all dont worry.

 

No at wer you are you need to await the full and final bill itemised of course, I have a sneaky feeling that this is just been thrown together based on some of the figures he seems to have pulled out of the air.

 

Also do not ask him if the deposit was protected. Check the below 3 deposit schemes to see if it was protected, if not post back.

 

http://www.mydeposits.co.uk/tenants/get-started/check-your-deposit

http://www.thedisputeservice.co.uk/is-my-deposit-registered.html

https://www.depositprotection.com/is-my-deposit-protected

[kirky]

Sound advice, thank you. I have not sent another letter. Will check the schemes you mentioned.

Thank you

[kirky]

Checked those three websites and there is no record of the deposit with any of them.

[transient]

Well the fact the deposit has not been protected puts you in good stead. I assuem the place rented is in the England? If so all well and good.

 

No my knowledge on the Tenancy deposit scheme has wained abit (due to focussing on studying) however when I last left it you could claim 3.5 times the amount of the intial deposit from the agency or landlaord for not protecting it.

 

When I last left this area there was a court case between a agency for not protecting the deposit and I believe it was ruled on similarly that you have to notify them you know it is not protected and they have some 7 days to do so, failure in doing so will allow you to claim the 3.5 times the value of your initial deposit, although I believe in reading recent threads it is sometimes applied at 2.5 times.

 

I am therefore not going to be able to assist you correctly in the pursuit of this as there has been a couple of test cases and I am not upto speed. I will say however you are ina strong position and I will await another lerned member to advise exactly how things now stand with deposits not protected by an agency.

 

(one thing for an agency not to protect a deposit in this day and age raises concerns with me as they should be doing that to protect themselves as much as the tenant and these sound a bit fly by night types. Thereofre it wouldnt surprise me as I alluded to earlier that I bet they have exaggerated all the charges thus far they are trying to levy against you)

[mariner51]

transient, please do not comment on current DPS penalties until you have studied the current Regs brought in by the Localism Act on 6 Apr 12. As you say, you are a bit out of date.