Help with Council Tax Bailiff needed urgently...

[Jimbo512]

Hi,

Thanks for your help in advance everyone. To cut a very long story short I've had problems being able to pay by my Council Tax for about 6 years now (since a divorce funnily enough!), I've explained my situation to the council, informed them of a low self-employed income of approximately £10 K, etc. but they've got liability orders & still sent Bailiffs to me each year (Rossendales). Each year I've had to write to Rossendales explaining my situation, write & visit the council, etc & tell them I just can't pay. To be positive about a Bailiff for a change, although they have been quite 'forceful' in asking for money they have listened to me & handed the debt back to the council to sort out (eventually).

 

This afternoon I went out to my car to find it clamped with a notice from a different firm on my side window, asking me to pay nearly 8 K in full, in the next few hours, or my car will be "taken & sold at public auction".

 

It was just an A4 piece of paper with a 5 digit reference number on, no other documentation, no court reference etc. I've phoned & spoken to their representative, informing him that I'm self employed & I need my car for work. He said as it's not a van I don't & I can use public transport - I told him I need to carry up to 6 PC's & tools etc & this would be impossible on public transport - "well hire a vehicle" was his reply. He then questioned whether or not I was self employed (I'm a sole trader) & wanted me to be able to produce company accounts. He told me the only way he would release the clamp was if I paid over £600, the amount of one of the liability orders and wasn't prepared to enter any sort of payment plan.

 

I then phoned the council collections department who said they would speak to the bailiff & get back to me. He phoned back to say it was with the Bailiff & the council were not prepared to do anything & 'that was his last word on the matter'.

 

If anyone could help with this at all I'd be incredibly grateful, I've got 2 young children, work I need to be able to transport large bulky machines to & from & I'm already on medication for a stress related illness, I need my car! Thanks.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Jimbo512

[thorntondog]

Can you remove the wheel , put the spare on and move the car a few streets away. -I would out of desperation but

 

 

I dont know if it is liiegal or not so I may be giving you wrong idea!! Depends on the notice left. I believe there are some baillif experts on this site and I am not one of them

[Jimbo512]

Thanks Thorntondog but I don't want to do anything that could be deemed illegal. Apart from the Bailiffs own A4 letter asking for payment in full, with 'URGENT' in big black type on a red background stuck to my car & another similar notice posted through my door asking for £7, 841 immediately (that I've only just found) that's the only paperwork - nothing 'official'.

 

Is it legal to turn up & on a first visit do this on a vehicle without giving any option to pay or with no official paperwork? Also there is no Liability Order for £7, 841, as stated on their letter, but different Liability Orders which I doubt even when added together comes to this sum, is that legal?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Jimbo512

[ploddertom]

Ask him to produce the Clamping Order from the Court.

 

PT

[Jimbo512]

Thanks PT, if I phone the Bailiff in the morning & ask him to produce this am I within my rights to ask him to come & remove the clamp until he can produce this? Or will he just go & get a clamping order & bring it when he takes my car? From looking through some of the other threads it would seem that the bailiff should have left me a copy of the relevent legislation - section 5 is that right? If so then all I received was the paperwork mentioned in my initial thread. Also, has my car been lawfully 'levied against', whatever that means? Thanks very much in advance for your help.

[ploddertom]

The use of a clamp for Council Tax is highly questionable - no doubt the Bailiff will say it is perfectly lawful. If the Bailiff has the relevant clamping order issued by the Court then no problem, if not it could be that he has caused a trespass against the vehicle and could be sued for damages in the County Court. Alternatively you could release the vehicle from the clamp but to do so must be done without any damage to the device, you must then inform the clown his clamp is available for collection. One thing you have to watch out for when a vehicle is clamped is that sometimes the local toerags think it a good idea to saw the clamp off then go & toss it in the nearest river!

 

When he attended he should have left you the relevant Notice of Seizure (Form 7) listing the items seized - it should list vehicle make & model, VRM and should note the details from the tax disc. This should also have on it the charges he has made for this action.

 

You mention you owe a lot of money for CT, I therefore imagine he has levied on a Rolls Royce or similar. You also say you are self employed, is the vehicle insured for business use and are you the only insured driver. Doesn't matter if it is a van or a car or indeed a motor bike if you can demonstrate it is needed in the pursuit of your business particularly if carrying tools & spares etc.

 

PT

[Jimbo512]

Thanks for your help PT, it is much appreciated! No I wasn't left any 'notice of seizure' or anything about charges, only the 'URGENT' notice on my car window & a 'Bailiffs Execution Notice' letter that was similar. Yes the vehicle is insured for business use, I'm the sole driver & I'd say it's only worth £5/6 grand. Please find below the email I'm just about to send to the collections agency, I though better to get it 'on paper' so to speak & send it rather than to try & speak to their representative again. Any further advice PT would be great, or anyone else out there please feel welcome to help!

 

Hello There,

 

I hope you can help me with a very urgent matter. One of your representatives (a Mr ****) called at my house yesterday and clamped my car, in relation to your reference number above. I was not aware of his doing this until I came out to my car in the afternoon to find it clamped & a A4 piece of paper marked “URGENT” (blackletters on red background) informing me I had to pay £7,841 in full within the next few hours or my vehicle would be removed & sold at public auction. I also found an A4 letter that had been put through my letterbox, titled 'Bailiffs Execution Notice' for the sumof £7, 831, stating your representative had attended 'with a liability order from the Magistrates Court to remove goods...' and if 'immediate contact is not forthcoming I will re-attend at myconvenience and may be forced to remove goods even in your absence'.

 

I phoned the number on the letter marked 'URGENT' and spoke to Mr ****. I informed him who I was & told him I had been trying to sort this out with the council for a very long time. I went on to tell him that I was self-employed (a sole trader) & that it was my understanding that a bailiff was not allowed to clamp my work vehicle & asked that he please attend my property to release the clamp. Mr **** informed me that he would not do so as 'my car was not a van' and so unsuitable as a work vehicle. I informed him that in my work as an ICT Technician my vehicle was an ideally sized, economical vehicle (I often have to transport 6-8, & sometimes more P.C.'s between sites, as well as boxes of tools, etc). He then questioned me as to whether my vehicle was insured for business use, I informed him it was but he argued that I would need motor insurance specific to my business – something not needed with my insurance company. He then asked if I had company accounts I could show him. I informed him I could show him invoices, paying in books, bank statements, etc. but he insisted that I should be able to show him my company accounts, signed off by an accountant, even though I informed him that as a sole trader I was able to file my tax returns to HMRC myself. He informed me that he did not think I was self-employed, which being self-employed I obviously dispute! He went on to say I could get by using public transport (difficult to transport P.C.s & tools on a bus) or I could hire a vehicle – I informed him that I could not afford to do that & that if my car is not released I will be unable to work. He was unmoved.

 

As Mr **** was not willing to release my vehicle, even though I'm self-employed, I went on to ask him what was the minimum fee I could pay to have my car released so that I could at least work & then hopefully sort this out with the council. He informed me that the smallest liability order he had was for £600 + & he would accept this as a payment. I informed him I did not have anywhere near that amount of money, or the ability to get it – my credit is maxed out. I told him that Iwould be able to pay him a tenth of that (& that would be stretching my finances) which I thought reasonable but he refused,informing me I would have to pay it all to have my vehicle released. He told me he would give me 'a couple of days' to come up with the £600 + before towing my car. As I was getting nowhere the conversation ended.

 

I then phoned thedistrict council & spoke to a Mr ******. I informed him of the discussion Mr **** & I had, that I had offered to pay a percentage of the money owed but that Mr. **** would only except a full payment of the liability order. Mr ****** said he would speakto Mr **** & get back to me.

 

When Mr ****** phonedback he was very short with me, that I would have to deal with the Bailiffs '& that was his last word on the matter'.

 

I've phoned my local councillor today to find out if he can help me at all with the council, in the meantime can I ask if you have a 'Clamping Order' from the court for my vehicle? If so, would it be possible for you to email me a scan of it back please? If you do not have a 'ClampingOrder' has Mr **** clamped my vehicle legally? In addition to this, is the paperwork that Mr **** left for me all that was needed & there should be nothing else?

 

If you do not have a'Clamping Order', just out of the goodness of your heart or you find that I am in fact self-employed can I ask once again that you please release your clamp ASAP? I look forward to your reply at your earliest convenience & thanks in advance for your help.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Jimbo512

[ploddertom]

You most certainly do not have to give them copies of Invoices or Accounts etc. You only need to provide a copy of your Insurance docs highlighting the sole driver and business use sections. I would also point out that as they are now denying you the opportunity to work you will be invoicing them for lost work or submitting a claim against them for the hire of a suitable vehicle on a daily basis.

 

You send a copy of whatever you end up with to the Council as well - they are 100% liable for the actions of their contractor - and advise them you will name them as co-defendant in any action you may take to retrieve your losses.

 

PT

[tomtubby]

Sorry Ploddertom but can I please correct you. A "Clamping Order" is a provision under the Courts Act 2003 and is one of remedies available to magistrate courts if a FINE remains unpaid. It is not applicable to the collection of council tax.

 

Also, if accounts are requested, I would personally send copies to the COUNCIL and NOT the bailiff company.

 

The regulations provide that a vehicle can be considered "exempt" if it is "for use personally in the course of business or employment".

 

How much is the car worth (auction value)

[brassnecked]

So for clarity is clamping permitted for council tax collection,?

[seanamarts]

Is this still with a Rossendale bailiff?

[Jimbo512]

Hi Guys, thanks for all of your help. Tomtubby, am I right in saying that even if they did not need a 'clamping order' they fact they left no 'notice of seizure' still makes their actions illegal? I'd say it's wortjh less than £5000 at auction. Seanamarts, no they seem to have passed it on to a different collection agency. Thanks everyone, much appreciated, I email the council yesterday & am waiting to see if I hear anything from them.

[seanamarts]

Who are the other bailiffs?

[tomtubby]

Bailiffs are commonly clamping cars for unpaid council tax. There is a legal requirement to provide a Notice of Seizure at the time that goods had been levied.

 

As to whether the action is illegal if the Notice had not been left......this is a very difficult claim to make to the council because, the bailiff will then simply supply a copy of the notice and claim that one had been left with you. The council will of course believe their agent.

[ploddertom]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmpublic/protection/memo/pf5.htm

 

Read para 5

 

Also for those that have it para 8.4.6 on p169 Law of Seizure of Goods makes interesting reading.or alternatively p.70 Bailiffs; The Law& Your Rights.

 

PT

[Jimbo512]

Thanks for helping everyone. The bailiffs office replied to my email yesterday, telling me if I didn't pay £600+ by 10AM Friday they would take my car. I emailed them back with copies of my car insurance cover, self assesment statement from HMRC and a picture of my car tax disk (in their email they stated that my tax disk expired 1/12/11 so I could not be using my car for work - it actually expired 31/1/12 so not sure where they got that from! (I'd already ordered the new one online which I have now).

 

They've emailed me back this morning asking me to send them a copy of my V5 document. Is this normal, why would they want to see that as well? Thanks for your continuing help.

[mapadale]

Don't send them any copys of anything, deal with the council direct. I've recently challenged a council with regards to council tax and bailiff enforcement (A company called Equita) and it's now out of the bailiffs hands, so no more dealing with them.

 

I would advise making duplicate copys of everything that you have, with regards to the car being clamped, your insurance documents detailing the "Business Use" and anything else that you can use to prove that the car is used for the sole purpose of business. You then also need to write a letter to the council stating, that the car is used for the purpose of business and that you attach the necessary documents to prove this, also inform the council that continual non use of the car for your business as required to run your business, that you will fall into hardship and that you would then be classed as a venerable person and include the following statement also - and under the National Standards For Enforcement may 2002, where a vulnerable person/s is identified for the purpose of enforcement, that enforcement is ceased and the account/s retained back to the council.

 

You also need to include a budget sheet of expenditures, you should have had one of these when the court order was obtained. Fill it out and attach this also to the letter, once all that is done, you will need to go directly to your main council office and deliver it by hand and make sure that it is obtained by someone in the council tax enforcement office. You should also be able to explain your situation to them and also offer a payment plan to sort it out, the minimum acceptable offer is £1, but don't be checky and offer them something like either £5 or £10 per week. This would be classed as a reasonable offer by the courts and the council should advise you that they will retain the enforcement.

 

If they don't, you will then need to apply to the court for a stay of execution, but during that process the council should have contacted the enforcement company and had the clamp removed, as they have received evidential documents proving the provision of the car and it's use.

[hallowitch]

National Standards For Enforcement may 2002, were updated January 2012

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/enforcement-officers/national-standards-enforcement-agents.pdf

 

 

If they don't, you will then need to apply to the court for a stay of execution, but during that process the council should have contacted the enforcement company and had the clamp removed, as they have received evidential documents proving the provision of the car and it's use.

 

you cant get a stay of execution for council tax

 

PS I'm not knocking your post apart form this i think its a good post and have added to your rep

[mapadale]

National Standards For Enforcement may 2002, were updated January 2012

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/enforcement-officers/national-standards-enforcement-agents.pdf

 

 

If they don't, you will then need to apply to the court for a stay of execution, but during that process the council should have contacted the enforcement company and had the clamp removed, as they have received evidential documents proving the provision of the car and it's use.

 

you cant get a stay of execution for council tax

 

PS I'm not knocking your post apart form this i think its a good post and have added to your rep

Any form of court warrant can be given a stay of execution if applied to the court for a re-hearing of the case, unless the date of the warrant has passed, which would mean a new warrant would have to be applied for and notification given the the defendant

 

As for the amedment of the National Standards for Enforcement may 2002, the article on "Vulnerable Person/s" is still the same and both the enforcement agency and the council have a duty of care, which would still fall into this category "unemployed people" by the enforcement of the clamp on the car, as no means of working.

[brassnecked]

Any form of court warrant can be given a stay of execution if applied to the court for a re-hearing of the case, unless the date of the warrant has passed, which would mean a new warrant would have to be applied for and notification given the the defendant

 

As for the amedment of the National Standards for Enforcement may 2002, the article on "Vulnerable Person/s" is still the same and both the enforcement agency and the council have a duty of care, which would still fall into this category "unemployed people" by the enforcement of the clamp on the car, as no means of working.

 

Good reasoning but won't wash with Capquita.

[ploddertom]

Liability Orders can only be rescinded by the Authority who issued them.

[baileysdrinker]

Hi Jimbo512 , I fully understand what you are going through, we are having the same problem only with Marstons instead. We are applying for A stay of execution tomorrow at the magistrates court. This is our last hope other wise we will have to invite the bailiffs in! Scary times but after numerous phone calls to the council and Marstons to allow us deposit and pay installments to clear this debt, this is our only option left.

Like most people we got into this debt due to lack of income over the years but now with a good income coming in, due to my husbands new job, (but still not capable of paying off in one foul swoop) they still wont listen!

i hope you get things worked out.

[seanamarts]

Baileys, I would be interested to hear how your case has occurred, if you post it up we may be able to help.

 

However it would help if you started a new thread in here, If you are unable to manage that then please let me or one of the other site team know and we will do it for you.

[keithknight]

Baliffs are chancing it when they tr and levie on vehicles for council tax, this means of collection was afforded to them for the collection of unpaid motoring fines.. in reality the bailiff ha to enter your property to levie and the walking possesion dcument must be sign by you or the person allowing them entry, theycant for examplelook through your letter box and levi your TV etc.. so it follows the should not do so for your car... anyway they cannot levie on tools of your trade which yr car was.... however you cant keep ignoring your council tax demands so make sure yo are claiming every benifitts you can on your low income this should include help with your council tax.

[seanamarts]

Baliffs are chancing it when they tr and levie on vehicles for council tax, this means of collection was afforded to them for the collection of unpaid motoring fines.. in reality the bailiff ha to enter your property to levie and the walking possesion dcument must be sign by you or the person allowing them entry, theycant for examplelook through your letter box and levi your TV etc.. so it follows the should not do so for your car... anyway they cannot levie on tools of your trade which yr car was.... however you cant keep ignoring your council tax demands so make sure yo are claiming every benifitts you can on your low income this should include help with your council tax.

I would be interested to know where you obtained your information.