Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[**Margaret**]

:Judicial Review (?):

 

With backing from Disabled People Against Cuts and False Economy an employment n support allowance claimant is seeking a judicial review of, among other issues;

 

The right for all claimants to have their assessments of work capability and personal independence recorded by Atos/Capita.

 

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/legal-challenge-launched-against-unfair-government-disability-test

 

Mr Lynch was one of the 9 or 20 (dependent on which freedom of info response one's reading) people officially refused an audio recorded work capability assessment during 2012.

 

Margaret.

Edited January 18, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Snail Mail Freedom of Info Response:

 

Amid DWATO's disembling following the disclosure of RFP 27 I received a long overdue response to my snail mail freedom of info requests. Coincidently (?) it was dated 14 December. The content was pretty much what they've put, or praps more significantly, not put on the internet.

 

'...... current guidance states that claimants may use their own equipment to record their face-to-face assessment; however the Department for Work and Pensions requires that they must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy of the recording to the Healthcare Professional at the end of the assessment.'

 

They forgot to mention the certification of a dual deck compact disc/tape recorder at £300 a throw!!

 

'The HCP must agree to the recording of the assessment.'

 

Which narrows down the options somewhat!!

 

'...... all of the 11 machines originally purchased by the Department are still in use.'

 

'...... all of the 20 new machines have been delivered to Atos Healthcare.'

 

'...... there are currently 22 Jobcentre Plus cassette recorders on loan to Atos Healthcare.'

 

Think we've still got a few 'unreasonable obstructions' which, in my opinion, include DWATO's contempt for the rule of law. Margaret.

Edited January 19, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Hear, hear, Starry-E.

 

DWATO really are desperate not to put online the real extent of their obstruction to recording by a claimant.

 

This (*evil smile*) is not gong to last...

[Crazy Diamond]

current guidance states that claimants may use their own equipment to record their face-to-face assessment

;

 

yes

 

however the Department for Work and Pensions requires that they must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy of the recording to the Healthcare Professional at the end of the assessment.'

 

they can "require" all they like, doesn't mean we have to agree

 

They forgot to mention the certification of a dual deck compact disc/tape recorder at £300 a throw!!

 

that's becasue they can't actually demand it

 

'The HCP must agree to the recording of the assessment.'

 

only if you tell them

 

Which narrows down the options somewhat!!

 

hence don't tell them

 

all of the 11 machines originally purchased by the Department are still in use.

 

good think we don't care

 

all of the 20 new machines have been delivered to Atos Healthcare.

 

jolly good

 

there are currently 22 Jobcentre Plus cassette recorders on loan to Atos Healthcare.'

 

jolly good again

 

Think we've still got a few 'unreasonable obstructions' which, in my opinion, include DWATO's contempt for the rule of law. Margaret.

 

only if you let them. In reality, there is SFA they can do, and as long as we know it and they know it, it's pretty much game, set and match to us. The only thing we need to ensure is telling as many people as we can so no-one gets caught by their lies. I think that the above really shows they've been pushed back in their trenches, and they're just trying to save face where they can

[reallymadwoman]

I totally agree that there is nothing legally DWP or ATOS can do if you do your own recording.

 

Having said that if I ever get to the point of actually having an assessment I will have to decide if I am willing to take the risk that my covert recording will be discovered, the HCP will refuse to continue and my file will once again be back with DWP for a 'failed to attend/comply' decision. Being reasonably certain that an appeal would eventually succeed if my benefit is stopped might not be good enough to take the chance.

[estellyn]

I totally agree that there is nothing legally DWP or ATOS can do if you do your own recording.

 

Having said that if I ever get to the point of actually having an assessment I will have to decide if I am willing to take the risk that my covert recording will be discovered, the HCP will refuse to continue and my file will once again be back with DWP for a 'failed to attend/comply' decision. Being reasonably certain that an appeal would eventually succeed if my benefit is stopped might not be good enough to take the chance.

 

There are many covert recording devices that look like something else - I have one and recorded my assessment with it sitting on full view on the desk, great sound quality (not a mobile phone, use a phone to record and you'll likely be rumbled). But these things are widely available and pretty cheap - mine was about £15.

[Crazy Diamond]

I totally agree that there is nothing legally DWP or ATOS can do if you do your own recording.

 

Having said that if I ever get to the point of actually having an assessment I will have to decide if I am willing to take the risk that my covert recording will be discovered, the HCP will refuse to continue and my file will once again be back with DWP for a 'failed to attend/comply' decision. Being reasonably certain that an appeal would eventually succeed if my benefit is stopped might not be good enough to take the chance.

 

Ah, but if the HCP refuses to continue, then you can't be held as failing to attend/comply. You're here, and you're complying, since they have admitted that you are allowed to record. The HCP is the one choosing not to continue.

 

I know what you're saying about taking chances of having to go to appeal and no-one can make that decision for you, but unless more and more people take a stand and refuse to be bullied, they will be able to continue with their cycle of terror. The only reason that we are now at the stage where they have to back down so much is purely because a lot of people in your situation said: "no more" and refused to play by their rules.

 

Put it this way: if every single claimant goes to their WCA equipped with a recording device, hidden or not, it will soon become untenable for them to allow their staff to discontinue the interview. It's the same principle as the "work to rule" policy used by union members. Atos gets paid to process x amount of claims per week. If these don't happen, regardless as to the reason, soon the DWP will be saying: "sorry, but we're not paying you to sit there and drink tea, hidden in the staff room". Once that happens, Atos will be quick to tell their staff to suck it up and do the interviews, like it or not. At the moment, they are lettign their HCPs walk out because it suits their agenda. Once they start being inconvenienced, they'll soon give it up.

[worried33]

I totally agree that there is nothing legally DWP or ATOS can do if you do your own recording.

 

Having said that if I ever get to the point of actually having an assessment I will have to decide if I am willing to take the risk that my covert recording will be discovered, the HCP will refuse to continue and my file will once again be back with DWP for a 'failed to attend/comply' decision. Being reasonably certain that an appeal would eventually succeed if my benefit is stopped might not be good enough to take the chance.

 

This I guess depends on if you can survive without your IB/ESA during a wait for appeal. I unfrotenatly couldnt so I wasnt prepared to visibly record, I think the chances of a covert recording such as phone in your pocket been caught is slim tho.

[worried33]

There are many covert recording devices that look like something else - I have one and recorded my assessment with it sitting on full view on the desk, great sound quality (not a mobile phone, use a phone to record and you'll likely be rumbled). But these things are widely available and pretty cheap - mine was about £15.

 

I used my phone, the app I used works with the screen turned off. I started the rocording before entering the building as well no attention drawn to it. The app used the camcorder mic (much more powerful than the phone mic) which could pick up audio whilst in my pocket.

 

I personally wouldnt call £15 cheap, but I guess this depends how much spare cash you have in what would consider cheap, but be aware if you using something that looks like a car key eg. and you dont drive that may look odd.

[estellyn]

I used my phone, the app I used works with the screen turned off. I started the rocording before entering the building as well no attention drawn to it. The app used the camcorder mic (much more powerful than the phone mic) which could pick up audio whilst in my pocket.

 

I personally wouldnt call £15 cheap, but I guess this depends how much spare cash you have in what would consider cheap, but be aware if you using something that looks like a car key eg. and you dont drive that may look odd.

 

The recorder I bought is a good investment for me - I also use it for doctor appts and any DWP phone calls. Not had to use any recordings so far, but nice to know I could if I needed to. I had two clients who's assessment was stopped because they were accused of recording on the mobile phone (also activated outside the building with blank screen), they both denied it and agreed their phone could be kept by the receptionist for the assessment - they both had the same assessor, so I think she just freaks out whenever she sees a phone on the desk. I used my phone the first time, but the recording wasn't great (I had it in my top pocket).

[worried33]

The recorder I bought is a good investment for me - I also use it for doctor appts and any DWP phone calls. Not had to use any recordings so far, but nice to know I could if I needed to. I had two clients who's assessment was stopped because they were accused of recording on the mobile phone (also activated outside the building with blank screen), they both denied it and agreed their phone could be kept by the receptionist for the assessment - they both had the same assessor, so I think she just freaks out whenever she sees a phone on the desk. I used my phone the first time, but the recording wasn't great (I had it in my top pocket).

 

yes I wasnt stupid enough to put my phone on the desk, that would be kind of obvious.

 

As I said it recorded in my pocket.

[nolegion]

I think that is very interesting news, Estellyn. The paranoia of these people…

 

As regards that 'form' you will be asked to sign if you (finally) get to a WCA to be recorded by Atos, the DWP has, today, been made toconfirm:-

 

"Q 3:- The consent form is not acontractual agreement. The consent form has been designed to ensure that the claimant and the Healthcare Professional (HCP) have both given their consent for a recording to be undertaken. The form in question is not an agreementby which the parties enter into a legal relationship, and is therefore not abinding contract."

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/128365/response/352037/attach/2/3968%203795%20Final%20V%204.pdf

 

The text in the form remains legally inaccurate – but now rest completely assured you can totally ignore it in any event: official.

 

Same goes as regards the recording you take on your key-fob USBrecorder (or similar) as back-up, of course.

[Crazy Diamond]

I think that is very interesting news, Estellyn. The paranoia of these people…

 

As regards that 'form' you will be asked to sign if you (finally) get to a WCA to be recorded by Atos, the DWP has, today, been made toconfirm:-

 

"Q 3:- The consent form is not acontractual agreement. The consent form has been designed to ensure that the claimant and the Healthcare Professional (HCP) have both given their consent for a recording to be undertaken. The form in question is not an agreementby which the parties enter into a legal relationship, and is therefore not abinding contract."

 

 

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/128365/response/352037/attach/2/3968%203795%20Final%20V%204.pdf

 

The text in the form remains legally inaccurate – but now rest completely assured you can totally ignore it in any event: official.

 

Same goes as regards the recording you take on your key-fob USBrecorder (or similar) as back-up, of course.

 

EXCELLENT!

 

Well, I think that pretty much covers that, then.

[nolegion]

The DWP now claims that, since it began 'monitoring the uptake' of recording by ESA claimants (at some unspecified date in March last year):-

 

1. Only 9 requests have been refused.

 

2. Those refusals all took place last July.

 

3. The instances were confined to: East Midlands, East of England and London.

 

4. …" since 01/10/2012 Atos Healthcare has serviced all requests or they are in the

process of servicing all requests that have been received."

 

Ref: (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/139327/response/352527/attach/2/FOI%204623%20final.pdf

[reallymadwoman]

 

4. …" since 01/10/2012 Atos Healthcare has serviced all requests or they are in the

process of servicing all requests that have been received."

 

 

One way of not refusing a recording is of course to delay the assessment indefinitely .....

Perhaps they're hoping that those inconvenient claimants who are demanding their rights will die before being assessed.

[**Margaret**]

: DWATO's Innumeracy:

 

'...... in the three months ending July 2012 there were 20 requests that were not complied with ......'

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/recording_of_work_capability_ass_2#incoming-343081

Response dated 25 September 12

 

Well, Mr Hoban, which is the correct figure?

 

Me feels another freedom of info request coming on.

 

Margaret.

 

:flame:

[estellyn]

One way of not refusing a recording is of course to delay the assessment indefinitely .....

Perhaps they're hoping that those inconvenient claimants who are demanding their rights will die before being assessed.

 

I wonder if people in the support group are prioritised for recordings, then WRAG then those in the assessment period. Otherwise if you're in the support group you could ask for a recording and be delayed indefinately on the support group. Should find out soon, been a year since my last brown envelope, so should get another one soon, and I'll be asking for a recording.

[worried33]

The DWP now claims that, since it began 'monitoring the uptake' of recording by ESA claimants (at some unspecified date in March last year):-

 

1. Only 9 requests have been refused.

 

2. Those refusals all took place last July.

 

3. The instances were confined to: East Midlands, East of England and London.

 

4. …" since 01/10/2012 Atos Healthcare has serviced all requests or they are in the

process of servicing all requests that have been received."

 

Ref: (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/139327/response/352527/attach/2/FOI%204623%20final.pdf

 

That confirms it was localised then. Isnt it also interesting the only confirmed recordings that have been carried out since july are in those regions as well?

[bigissue]

I have a recognised and officially diagnosed learning difficulty which is listed on my ESA claim form and nobody suitable to come into the assesment to take notes for me. It would be impossible for me to take acurate notes during the assesment and I was given special permission and equipment to record lectures at college.

 

Could I argue for my assesment to be offically recorded on these grounds, I don't just want to be fobbed off and told we cannot accomodate your request, surely they would have to do this as a reasonable adjustment?

[Dilizjo]

Bigissue write to ATOS and ask for a recorded assessment as it is your right. Send it via recorded delivery then you can prove receipt. They will try and tell you that equipment is not available but stick to your guns. You don't need special grounds to demand the assessment to be recorded.

 

they will send you appointments that do not mention recording, when they do phone and ask if it is down to be recorded? if not ask for the telephone number of the relevant office and verify if recording is in place, the answer will most probably be no, tell them it is your right as stated by Chris Grayling in the HoC, they will then cancel your appt.... when they do this ask for verification in writing that they have cancelled due to their inability to provide the service you are entitled to, it will be handy if you can record telephone conversations as well as ATOS do fail on keeping their promises.

 

Also phone the DWP and tell them if you do have an assessment cancelled due to no recording equipment so it does not go as a cancellation on your part or a no show.

 

If you turn up to an assessment that they have said will be recorded and find the equipment is not available they may say that you still have to have the assessment or you will be sanctioned... this is not true.....

 

If possible do stick by your guns, it may be a long and stressful battle but is worth persisting with.

 

There are organisations that can help, in my area we have Help Direct that visit our GPs surgery once a week, they can then refer you to an advocacy agency who will accompany you to the assessment, which I would recommend even if you have it recorded. Ask at your surgery and see if they have a similar scheme ....

 

Good luck and keep your chin up xx

[bigissue]

Dilizjo, thank you so much for your support and excellent advice. I will just try my best to "stick to my guns" and to take it all as it comes. I really suffered the last time I went though the process and I don't want that to happen again. If I just keep my cool and keep notes, records etc as I go along then will hopefully stay on top of everything. I will perhaps pick up a cheap diary to keep my notes in.

 

Your advice on how to handle appointments cancelled by ATOS due to lack of equipment is great as I am worried about something being cancelled over the phone and then that not being recorded and reported as a no show.

 

I am going to speak to my local CAB so hopefully they can assist me somewhat.

 

Thanks again!

[nolegion]

That's the spirit.

……………………

 

 

It's been in the back of my mind that I had somewhere seen an internal DWP\JCP memo about the circumstances referred to in CrazyD's post # 972 (18 01 13, above) i.e. where a claimant wants to record interviews in person with DWP staff (not WCAs).

 

Now I've found it. Once again, it was something cheerfully chewed off by the attack dogs at WDTK, a little while ago:-

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/91474/response/225710/attach/7/Recordings%20by%20claimants%20v17%20FINAL%2030%20Aug%202011.doc#General

 

And it is a load of hysterical and inaccurate rubbish ofcourse. But, note, even this does not try to claim that JCP staff can make claimants sign any 'agreement' in advance about their OWN recording. In the brief narrative CD reports, therefore, that would appear to be a further layer of unenforceable claptrap dreamt up for the occasion by the office concerned.

 

I would have been sorely tempted to tell the JCP people involved to put any such verbiage somewhere unmentionable.

[**Margaret**]

:That's the spirit?:

 

That is most definitely not the spirit at Shatos.

 

With an assurance that an audio recorder would arrive before she did, but not quite able to believe them, an acquaintance took a copy of that word doc and a recording gadget to her messical. They're held in a private room, yes?

 

When she arrived, white van man was still an hour away so she mooted the idea to the centre manager. Shock! Horror!! The end of civilisation as Shatos knows it!!! In what she described as a lecture:

 

'We are not a Jobcentre, we are Atos Healthcare.'

'Jobcentre rules do not apply to Atos.'

'Medicals can only be recorded by Atos.' (Clearly the manager hadn't read RFP27.)

'Atos record medicals. We have a special system called LIMA.'

 

Courtesy of CIB/3117/08, and to the chagrin of the centre manager, my acqaintance is still in the queue for an audio recorded by Shatos onto a compact disc/tape messical.

 

Margaret.

Edited January 26, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

lol! By 'that's the spirit' I intended to refer to the immediately preceeding useful exchange betwen Dilizjo and bigissue, but I managed to make that thunderously unclear.

 

As regards the ongoing battle about recording, whether of sickeness\idsability tests or other interactions with DWATO and Co...ah no.. the 'spirit' there remains one of ignorance, obstruction and deceit.

[**Margaret**]

:nolegion:

 

Six of one n half a dozen of the other?

 

Thought you were comparing a minimal thawing in the Jobcentres with DWATO's absolute recalcitrance to audio recorded messicals.

Despite RFP27!

 

Sincerely, Margaret.