Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[speedfreek]

How about somebody contact Private Eye via site team?

 

Before anybody approaches them we formulate the article here.

 

Short sweet factual and provide extra links for 1 to prove what we are saying and 2 allow them to put that throne room twist to it in their own words.

 

Sorry site team but CAG got a rather nice write up and mention in the latest issue due to RLP so we might have a contact who's receptive.

 

Before you all go ape.... think.... breath... think.... breath.... think...act!

 

Being the magazine for past 5 years of choice in the throne room might I suggest.

 

Catchy name

take up figures on pilot - plus breakdown analysis DWP plus any other source on uptake n why.

Grayling parlament responses

FOI requests on number of machines.

Stories of early requests.

Evidence of need for... say difference between non recorded and recorded DWP success results by category - i.e. mental v's physical (mental is where we're aiming 1st but physical backs it up

Mix in the new higher IB to ESA success rate. Test appeals etc.

Brief death of WRAG group to national average stats plus stats on suicide.

ATOS response to it

Lying to claimants

New position

 

chuck in a few well sourced links of facts not speculation. Remember it's for the uneducated you have to give them facts figures backed up by things they believe. Like kitty up a tree! slowly slowly catchy monkey as they say!

 

And go!

Edited July 11, 2012 by speedfreek

[**Margaret**]

Not just Atos's 'Professionals' (helped by Lima) who get to change the story as they go along.

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

Another Atos day:

 

Began with the discovery that Royal Mail had managed to deliver my advance written request for audio recording of my interrogation (correct address, correct postage, and sent recorded delivery) to; wait for it; the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. Credit where it's due, someone from Atos went to retrieve it.

 

A summary of the ensuing conversation is that;

Next week's appointment's cancelled cos they haven't time to arrange recording.

Cancellation will be confirmed in writing.

A new appointment will be sent when they've 'got things sorted'.

 

Current furore about recording wasn't mentioned, probably by mutual agreement, nor was there any pressure to accept an unrecorded interview. All in all, everyone (cept Royal Mail) played nicely, for today, but it'll be an anxious wait for the cancellation letter.

 

Best wishes to everyone trying to cope with this fiasco.

Goodnight, Margaret.

Edited July 12, 2012 by **Margaret**

[Simon7685]

I have still not received any letter confirming cancellation of yesterdays appointment for my waterboarding session. I only know it was definately cancelled due to DWP confirming when they rang me last week after my letter.

 

I am also still awaiting a response to the email fired off to Sturmbannführer Grayling, although that does not surprise me in the slightest....... I am thinking about contacting his boss Obersturmbannführer Smith, as at least an acknowledgement of receipt would have been nice. Failing that I think that a recorded delivery letter with copies of all communications should be sent right to the top to Herr Fuhrer Cameron for his consideration.

 

I am still waiting for any further contact from ATOS regarding my recorded sham medical and have no intention of accepting an unrecorded one. Until it appears on the six o clock news headlines that the Government have decided not to allow them being recorded, I have no intention of accepting it. Even then I think their will be right of appeal as far as the European Court of Human Rights.

 

The only way we can change things is by fighting for basic rights and not giving in. Eventually someone somewhere will have to listen.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Simon7685
correction

[Dilizjo]

Fully agree with you Simon, I have the same resolve.....

 

I also have not received any cancellation confirmation of any of my 3 cancelled appts or any recognition from "I am going to reply to you, but not give you an actual answer to your direct question, with a big smile and lie through my teeth" Grayling

[osdset]

"I am going to reply to you, but not give you an actual answer to your direct question, with a big smile and lie through my teeth" Grayling

Don't hold your breath on that on, even if you met him and backed him into a corner the conversation would go something like:

 

You "Can I have my assessment recorded MR Grayling?"

CG " I reckon that Mystic Wind has an excellent chance in the 3:30, best to do it each way though"

You " I asked about recording assessments"

CG "Terribly sorry, It's about half past three"

You "What are you babbling on about? I WANT INFORMATION, AND CONFIRMATION!"

CG "AH! Well, the Commons library is just around the corner, and I believe that St Egbert's RC church does confirmations at four pm, if you hurry you might just join the queue"

You " You're a complete idiot aren't you?"

Grayling gives you a maniacal smile rolls his left trouser leg up and hops off singing tiptoe through the tulips.

[worried33]

Another Atos day:

 

Began with the discovery that Royal Mail had managed to deliver my advance written request for audio recording of my interrogation (correct address, correct postage, and sent recorded delivery) to; wait for it; the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. Credit where it's due, someone from Atos went to retrieve it.

 

A summary of the ensuing conversation is that;

Next week's appointment's cancelled cos they haven't time to arrange recording.

Cancellation will be confirmed in writing.

A new appointment will be sent when they've 'got things sorted'.

 

Current furore about recording wasn't mentioned, probably by mutual agreement, nor was there any pressure to accept an unrecorded interview. All in all, everyone (cept Royal Mail) played nicely, for today, but it'll be an anxious wait for the cancellation letter.

 

Best wishes to everyone trying to cope with this fiasco.

Goodnight, Margaret.

 

Can you pleas eoutline what you did to get ATOS to cancel?

 

The DWP have not got back to me, I rang ATOS again and the best I have got is they sending written confirmation as I said i need it for legal reasons and them giving me a leeds number for their customer relations which noone ever answers.

 

If I understand you right you sent a latter with the grayling quote attached but that actually never made it to them but they still cancelled?

 

--update--

 

Have spoken to the DWP they are washing their hands of it.

 

First person told me to get legal advice and just quoted me what ATOS told them, when I asked if the DWP consider ATOS right or wrong a opinion was refused. ATOS apparently according to DWP guidelines have to allow a professional 3rd party to record but not someone like the claimant or a family member.

Second person (on the normal JCP helpine) basically said ATOS can do what they want, saying the DWP have zero control over ATOS appointments and what ATOS says goes.

 

The ATOS leeds customer relations number doesnt even ring its just engaged as if left off the hook. Now nottingham just say ring leeds, they refuse to even talk about it. So this in short is brute forcing a normal medical, my guess is fi I dont turn up or get kicked out for bringing recording equipment the DWP wil swiftly consider me as non attending.

 

The problem is I dont have anything in writing saying I have the right, we just have quotes from MP's which I am not sure will stick on a tribunal.

Edited July 12, 2012 by worried33
update

[hensteeth]

Can you pleas eoutline what you did to get ATOS to cancel?

 

The DWP have not got back to me, I rang ATOS again and the best I have got is they sending written confirmation as I said i need it for legal reasons and them giving me a leeds number for their customer relations which noone ever answers.

 

If I understand you right you sent a latter with the grayling quote attached but that actually never made it to them but they still cancelled?

 

--update--

 

Have spoken to the DWP they are washing their hands of it.

 

First person told me to get legal advice and just quoted me what ATOS told them, when I asked if the DWP consider ATOS right or wrong a opinion was refused. ATOS apparently according to DWP guidelines have to allow a professional 3rd party to record but not someone like the claimant or a family member.

Second person (on the normal JCP helpine) basically said ATOS can do what they want, saying the DWP have zero control over ATOS appointments and what ATOS says goes.

 

The ATOS leeds customer relations number doesnt even ring its just engaged as if left off the hook. Now nottingham just say ring leeds, they refuse to even talk about it. So this in short is brute forcing a normal medical, my guess is fi I dont turn up or get kicked out for bringing recording equipment the DWP wil swiftly consider me as non attending.

 

The problem is I dont have anything in writing saying I have the right, we just have quotes from MP's which I am not sure will stick on a tribunal.

 

Does anybody have a rough idea how much it will cost for a 3rd party to record the assessment?

[worried33]

I would be very surprised if its cheap, because remember that person you are paying for their time to be there with you.

 

Welfare rights are looking into this for me, and my MP is as well, my MP when told about Grayling's statement became very onside.

 

Have to be careful what I say here but its looking like the DWP have approved of this behind closed doors but will not attach their name to the policy change but rather just allow it to happen, thats my theory and not fact.

 

Also the profressional recording is what a DWP person said not ATOS, ATOS have simply refused any recording not done by themselves and also now refusing to do the recording themselves, their customer relations number is still permanently engaged.

[nolegion]

Well, isn’t that odd, now. As regards the ridiculous, prohibitively expensive, deliberately obstructive, 'professional recording' arrangements, this is what the DWP had to say just a few days ago (25th June 2012):-

 

"The recording of assessments is a customer service which has always been available and will continue to be available to claimants.The criteria for recording assessments will be explained to claimants as and when requests are submitted."

 

(see near end of;-

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/108578/response/291376/attach/2/FOI1060%20Response%2025.06.12.pdf)

[osdset]

As part of his third independent review of the Work Capability Assessment, Professor Harrington has launched a call for evidence.

He is particularly interested in views and evidence about the implementation of his recommendations and any changes to:

 

• communications.
  
• face-to-face assessment.
  
• decision making.
  

Ho hum................ anyway, you might want to read the consultation document.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2012/wca-call-for-evidence.shtml

[**Margaret**]

To: worried 33,

 

'.... what you did to get Atos to cancel?' During yesterday's conversation? Nothing!

Phone call was only about chasing the misdelivered letter. Atos offered to rebook with recording but as yet I've nothing in writing.

 

:flame:'best fit' smilies I can find to act as warning lights. (nods to Lima)

 

 

You've understood correctly that I sent Atos an advance written request for an audio recorded interrogation, with a copy of Grayling's parliamentary written answer stapled to it.

 

My preference for this kind of caper is always for it to be in writing. Bit like the need for recorded Atos interrogations. One knows what's been said, when it was said, and who said it. Not to mention avoiding the DWATO call centre roundabout. Which brings us to Atos 'customer relations'. Note they don't call it customer complaints; and so far as I know, never have done. You'll get an answer if you write to them but I doubt you'll like it.

 

Hope your Member of Parliament (assume s/he's not blue) or Welfare Rights can help. Best wishes, Margaret.

Edited July 12, 2012 by **Margaret**

[hensteeth]

As part of his third independent review of the Work Capability Assessment, Professor Harrington has launched a call for evidence.

He is particularly interested in views and evidence about the implementation of his recommendations and any changes to:

 

 

 

• communications.
  
• face-to-face assessment.
  
• decision making.
  

Ho hum................ anyway, you might want to read the consultation document.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/consultations/2012/wca-call-for-evidence.shtml

 

excellent. but we all have to be aware that nothing will change no matter what 'evidence' is put before him.

 

There is a political need for ESA to work in the way that they want it to work.

 

People coming up with arguments that having a recorded assessment will be fairer and more open will be seen as 'trouble makers'. The politicians don't want people to come up with shortcuts or loopholes around the system. hence why they are hoping to introduce the new appeal system where you don't get paid any money whilst waiting for a re-consideration that could take months. They have got wise to the abuse of the current system as there is no pressure on people found fit for work to look for a job and/or claim JSA. Just appeal and get paid anyhow so why bother with JSA!

[count orlok]

They have got wise to the abuse of the current system as there is no pressure on people found fit for work to look for a job and/or claim JSA. Just appeal and get paid anyhow so why bother with JSA!

 

Everybody who is claiming ESA has been found to be sick or disabled by a qualified doctor; either their own GP or a DWP doctor who took their IB medical. There is no abuse of the system in the way you are suggesting. People are not being found fit for work, they are failing a test that is unfit. The only people who get paid are these who are sick or disabled. I am so ashamed and angry that people are expected to live with no income. How can this be allowed at least while we still have human rights in this country?

Edited July 12, 2012 by count orlok

[Slatted]

It is already the case that some unfortunates are being denied benefits because JCP will not allow them to remain on JSA as they are not fit for work but ESA WCA has said they are. (or is it fit "to" work rather than for?)..so even if they throw in the towel and try doing what is expected they can end up losers....with no money and nowhere to turn for any help....ridiculous!!!

 

And what of those who are appealing WRAG versus Support Group decision? Are they to be tarred with the same brush I wonder...

[Nystagmite]

Not being able to claim either benefit is illogical.

 

I have just received an ESA50. My claim started on July 2nd...

[Slatted]

Not being able to claim either benefit is illogical.

 

I have just received an ESA50. My claim started on July 2nd...

 

Since when has the benefit system been logical? It is happening, or at least according to some of the information on threads on this site...too sick for JSA and too "able" for ESA....it is awful.

[hensteeth]

Everybody who is claiming ESA has been found to be sick or disabled by a qualified doctor; either their own GP or a DWP doctor who took their IB medical. There is no abuse of the system in the way you are suggesting. People are not being found fit for work, they are failing a test that is unfit. The only people who get paid are these who are sick or disabled. I am so ashamed and angry that people are expected to live with no income. How can this be allowed at least while we still have human rights in this country?

 

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with you, but unfortunately there is a certain amount of abuse of the appeal system.

I have heard it said many times in meetings that I chair in my town, that a certain core readilly admit to 'playing the appeal system' instead of looking for a job and claiming JSA. Their argument has nothing to do with money but mainly centres on the strictness that is imposed on JSA claimant's. They can never be certain from one week to the next if they will be paid the benefit, and the pressures of this work scheme is really upsetting them. They look to see if they can get a sick note from their GP and then claim ESA again.

 

 

In the main they tend to be those that have been on IB and have been assessed for ESA.

[hensteeth]

 

And what of those who are appealing WRAG versus Support Group decision? Are they to be tarred with the same brush I wonder...

 

No they aren't. They have been found to be ill and unfit for work already. They will continue to get the work group payment whilst the reconsideration and appeal goes through.

 

It only affects those that have been found fit for work.

[speedfreek]

I have heard it said

 

What she said was sad But then, all the rejection she's had To pretend to be happy Could only be idiocy La-la-la .. - The Smiths

 

Oops wrong thread anybody want some buns

[hensteeth]

Not being able to claim either benefit is illogical.

 

I have just received an ESA50. My claim started on July 2nd...

 

Good luck to you. I am due for a review in a few months. I am not a fool not to know what will happen. After being in the support group for the past 3 years after extensive evidence was sent in to overturn the original '0' points, I know for a certainty that I will again end up with '0' points leaving the alternative to once again start asking my consultants' and GP for reports (time spent by them which could be spent in looking after people) to demonstrate how wrong the assessment will be.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, I feel like giving up . I have fought the DWP on three fronts over the past few years - DLA, IIDB & ESA and have a vision that the whole damn thing will start again. Fail ESA, trigger a review of DLA, fail that, appeal against both. Then IIDB, another review in Jan.

On top of that I am fighting the Pension Service, a war that started in March last year and is still raging.

 

That idylic thought I had a few years ago of living in a wooden shack with my wife and faithful Lab on a small island surrounded by a large lake and and no one to ever interfere in my life again is still there, but much stronger now!!!

[**Margaret**]

Year three review of work capability assessment:

 

From page 14;

'The form (ESA50) ......... has been designed to be simpler to complete'

 

????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????????????????????????

 

Oh yeah? Can't say as we noticed. After two weeks puzzling we gave up on their silly boxes and submitted a statement instead.

 

To pinch from another site;

The ESA50 really is the most unfit for purpose form ever!!

 

Margaret.

[hensteeth]

What she said was sad But then, all the rejection she's had To pretend to be happy Could only be idiocy La-la-la .. - The Smiths

 

Oops wrong thread anybody want some buns

 

You OK?

 

Whatever you are smoking I could do with some!!

[Slatted]

No they aren't. They have been found to be ill and unfit for work already. They will continue to get the work group payment whilst the reconsideration and appeal goes through.

 

I hope so but unless the rules are clear I can see it being applied to all appeals no matter what...

[Slatted]

Good luck to you. I am due for a review in a few months. I am not a fool not to know what will happen. After being in the support group for the past 3 years after extensive evidence was sent in to overturn the original '0' points, I know for a certainty that I will again end up with '0' points leaving the alternative to once again start asking my consultants' and GP for reports (time spent by them which could be spent in looking after people) to demonstrate how wrong the assessment will be.

 

 

I am sure that the costs to NHS of all the reports and letters and additional appointments required to support appeals and reassessments should be noted and used to show impact of what is meant to be saving money.....

 

I am sure specialists really want to be spending all their time working on reports for appeals rather than what they trained for and specialise in!!!