Benefit fraud - overpayment of carers allowance

[ErikaPNP]

Are you certain that you won't qualify for legal aid - have you applied for it?

 

There are some solicitors that will take on cases free or at a reduced rate, it's worth looking around to see if you can locate one.

[greensaab]

i filled in the form online and i qualify but as soon as i add my husband !!!!!!!!! No go. i have suggested he leaves home but !!

[ErikaPNP]

Any ideas to what sort of sentence i would get. the overpayment is £20749. and it was paid from oct 2004 till june 2010. what really gets me is ,if as they claimed i was dishonest and knew ts that i wasnt entitled to it. Please tell me why i would then go and get a job with the local authority. surely cash in hand or a small back strreet shop would have been better.!!

 

For that amount, over that period of time and the fact that they are not stating the claim was fraudulent from the outset, sentencing options include a medium level community order, or up to 12 weeks in custody. Custodial sentences are very, very rare. There is also the possibility of a fine but for the amount you have mentioned combined with the period of time involved, a fine is less likely. The most likely is a community order.

[Nystagmite]

would they take into account that the OP has a disabled son she needs to care for, in terms of sentencing?

 

OP - please don't plead guilty if you believe you're not.

[jadeybags]

would they take into account that the OP has a disabled son she needs to care for, in terms of sentencing?

 

OP - please don't plead guilty if you believe you're not.

 

 

It didn't seem to matter for the lady that someone posted about last year. But people have been prosecuted for more than 5 times that amount & not gone to prison.

Previous convictions, or rather lack of, can play a part too. 20k isn't an amazing amount in the grand scheme of things. And what you said Greensaab about taking a job with the local authority is just one good defence against that charge!

[Life-Goes-On]

On its own getting a job with the LA isn't a good defence, the prosecution can just claim it was foolishness.

 

The trouble the OP has is ignorantia juris non excusa (ignorance is no excuse).

 

With the time-frame and amount the OP needs help in planning a defence, or mitigation if the case looks to overwhelming to win.

 

 

 

[jabba jones]

Can you not represent yourself? Now that you have the case adjourned it seems a shame to plead guilty?

 

OP - please don't plead guilty if you believe you're not.

 

Jadeybags & Nystagmite I know you both mean well but unless either of you are legally trained I feel it is very dangerous to advise or encourage Greensaab on how she should plead.

 

I worked on Fis for several years but am in no way qualified to advise on something that could be potentially so serious.

 

That is why I advised she find a solicitor experienced with benefit cases. They deal with these kind of things all the time. They know the best & worst case scenarios & if required how best to use mitigation (of which Greensaab has plenty). To go it alone at this stage without the correct knowledge of how the legal system works is potentially disastrous.

 

I can't help with information about legal aid but at least the not guilty plea at this stage has given Greensaab more time to look into this.

[Nystagmite]

Can you not represent yourself? Now that you have the case adjourned it seems a shame to plead guilty?

 

I am in no way being rude to the OP; but unless you really do know what you're doing (a convincing case would need to be put forward) this isn't a good idea. Many solicitors would have seen this before.

[jadeybags]

Fair point, but pleading guilty in court to something you haven't done is crazy in any situation, in my opinion. Why should someone that's innocent end up with a criminal record?

And ignorance is an excuse, especially when you're being charged with 'knowingly' Greensaab didn't knowingly do anything. So in that respect yes, you're right, a benefits solicitor is the way to go. Not a regular solicitor though, they will be as much use as a chocolate saucepan.

My brother pleaded not guilty to a non benefit matter in court last year, a crime that offers big reductions in sentencing if pleading guilty, but he wasn't guilty.

It got thrown out of court on the second day of that trial & he got an applogy from the judge & the prosecution solicitor. If he had pleaded guilty in the hope of a lesser sentence, it wouldn't have been thrown out of court in the end & he would now have a criminal record & probably be on the SOR. x

[greensaab]

Thanks for all the advice but without legal aid which i wont get. how do I pay for a solicitor. I cannot afford to pay one. So I am really stuck and i dont have the knowledge to defend myself.

So i really dont have any alternative but to change plea and hope for the best.

[confuciused]

I just found the website of the National ProBono Centre online. Might be worth contacting them to see if you can get some help through them. CAB may be able to advise you and give you some info on solicitors local to you who are willing to take on probono work. Shelter's national phone line is also worth a try. Good luck

[ErikaPNP]

Thanks for all the advice but without legal aid which i wont get. how do I pay for a solicitor. I cannot afford to pay one. So I am really stuck and i dont have the knowledge to defend myself.

So i really dont have any alternative but to change plea and hope for the best.

 

See my reply in post 26.

[jadeybags]

I just found the website of the National ProBono Centre online. Might be worth contacting them to see if you can get some help through them. CAB may be able to advise you and give you some info on solicitors local to you who are willing to take on probono work. Shelter's national phone line is also worth a try. Good luck

 

Good thinking

[Mazz633]

Hi greensaab

I've just received my court date for 12th April.

It might be worthwhile going to welfare rights and ask them to assist you. I am in same boat as you regarding legal aid.

My welfare rights officer was a previous benefit fraud investigator so hopefully she can help me as much as poss.I would just like to tell everyone I claimed C.A for two yrs thinking that there wasn't an earnings limit. How wrong I was....

[greensaab]

What do you mean by welfare rights Officer. I have tried to get an appointment to see CAB but nearest is 20th Feb and I need to see them to get a referral to Bar Bono free legal aid. Which appears to be just barrister who I dont think work in a magistrates court.

And How abou this one for a con. A Girl I worked with has been on Long term sick came back for three weeks to get full pay and yes you guessed it is now off sick again. However manages to go to pub every weekend. Where's the Bloody justices. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mazz633]

What do you mean by welfare rights Officer. I have tried to get an appointment to see CAB but nearest is 20th Feb and I need to see them to get a referral to Bar Bono free legal aid. Which appears to be just barrister who I dont think work in a magistrates court.

And How abou this one for a con. A Girl I worked with has been on Long term sick came back for three weeks to get

 

 

full pay and yes you guessed it is now off sick again.

 

However manages to go to pub every weekend. Where's

the Bloody justices. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Hi again

I just rang up my local council and asked if they had a welfare rights officer. Unfortunately they can't represent you in court so I've had to get a solicitor but I pay them £40 a month until my mahoosive bill will be paid. I understand what you mean about other people claiming benefits. There is no justice!!!! I'm being prosecuted for not reading my letters because well erm I was busy looking after my cancer riddled husband, my 16 yr old and trying to earn money to pay the bills. It's soo annoying but when I go to court I will hold my head up high

[clb338]

Hi,

 

I thought I would share my story here in the hope it may be of some help. I was claiming carers allowance for my son and then 5 years into receiving it applied to work in a pre-school, I got the job and worked their whilst studying towards a degree, I eventually left to manage a pre school after gaining my qualification. I am a single mum of four and the only benefit I claim in carers. I received a letter over a year ago to attend an interview under caution, which I duly did. I was completely honest and said I didnt realise I had to inform them that I was working, as i have never read their uprating letter that they send out each year and have never been requested to fill in a form about change in circumstances ect. My overpayment was for over £7,000.

 

Well they charged me and I attended court in August 2010 where I pleaded not guilty. On the day of my trial i explained to the panel (one judge and two magistrates) that my claim was always an honest one, as i do have a disabled son and that all I am guilty of if of not reading their letter. The DWP cross examined me and said that surely i must have read their letters, I explained that yes i did receive their letters but never read beyond the first page, I explained that the letter is very non descript, almost generic and the first line of each letter said 'you are entitled to carers allowance', it was on page 4 that the bit about change in cirucumstances is included. I explained that if the letters had required me to fill in a form and send back inorder for carers to continue then my overpayment would have been picked up within the first year and could have been stopped them, I said a change should be lobbied where carers allowance is administered in the same way as tax credits.

 

the only point in law they can find you guilty of where carers allowance is concerned is to prove that 'you knowling received the money for which you knew you were not entitled' I vemehnetly refuted that I had done this in court, because I had never read any of their uprating letters in all the time I had received the allowance.

 

I was found not guilty after twenty minutes of deliberations, which was right and just. I have to repay the money of course and this I am doing.

[greensaab]

Hi, is there any chance of letting me know your name and the court as I could possibly use this as a Precedence! I am in exactly the same situation. Or could you email or txt me it? Maybe i could call you if you prefer not to post your info here?

[jadeybags]

Hi,

 

I thought I would share my story here in the hope it may be of some help. I was claiming carers allowance for my son and then 5 years into receiving it applied to work in a pre-school, I got the job and worked their whilst studying towards a degree, I eventually left to manage a pre school after gaining my qualification. I am a single mum of four and the only benefit I claim in carers. I received a letter over a year ago to attend an interview under caution, which I duly did. I was completely honest and said I didnt realise I had to inform them that I was working, as i have never read their uprating letter that they send out each year and have never been requested to fill in a form about change in circumstances ect. My overpayment was for over £7,000.

 

Well they charged me and I attended court in August 2010 where I pleaded not guilty. On the day of my trial i explained to the panel (one judge and two magistrates) that my claim was always an honest one, as i do have a disabled son and that all I am guilty of if of not reading their letter. The DWP cross examined me and said that surely i must have read their letters, I explained that yes i did receive their letters but never read beyond the first page, I explained that the letter is very non descript, almost generic and the first line of each letter said 'you are entitled to carers allowance', it was on page 4 that the bit about change in cirucumstances is included. I explained that if the letters had required me to fill in a form and send back inorder for carers to continue then my overpayment would have been picked up within the first year and could have been stopped them, I said a change should be lobbied where carers allowance is administered in the same way as tax credits.

 

the only point in law they can find you guilty of where carers allowance is concerned is to prove that 'you knowling received the money for which you knew you were not entitled' I vemehnetly refuted that I had done this in court, because I had never read any of their uprating letters in all the time I had received the allowance.

 

I was found not guilty after twenty minutes of deliberations, which was right and just. I have to repay the money of course and this I am doing.

 

That is a really good thing to hear! That someone stuck to their guns when they didn't intentionally defraud anyone. Good for you.

[nobloodynamesleft]

This makes me so mad, there are so many cases like this. With Carers allowance everything is done through DWP and it's dependent on the disabled person getting DLA so it stands to reason so many people don't realise that it is affected by income as DLA isn't.

 

I've been through this recently and it was apparent that the prosecution had so many cases they didn't know if they were coming or going and never reviewed my case properly so have been backwards and forwards to court only to turn up on the day of my trial and for them to offer no evidence so the case was dismissed, which was great but had they reviewed it properly in the first place it should never have gone to court.

 

I can only strees what everyone else has said, you really do need legal advice, especially as it's such a large amount of money involved. I had lots of evidence to back up my case, i.e I had informed Income support, I received less housing/council tax benefit as a result of declaring I received Carers. Not to mention lots of legal points that were picked up by my solicitor.

[clb338]

Hi, is there any chance of letting me know your name and the court as I could possibly use this as a Precedence! I am in exactly the same situation. Or could you email or txt me it? Maybe i could call you if you prefer not to post your info here?

 

I don't wish to give my name, however the court was Taunton Magistrates court and my solicitor was Ed Boyce of http://www.boyce-solicitors.co.uk/

 

You really have to state your case the DWP even produced the uprating letter in court, which I folded in half as it is when posted out and clearly demonstrated how I only ever opened the letter pulled it out read I was entitled then shredded it. The DWP insisted that they werent disputing my case as being honest, however I stood up and said 'I beg to differ as I sat in a court of law and your accusing me of knowingly receiving a benefit I was not entitled to' I could even prove how I declared carers on all my tax credit claims, which I again stated that surely if I was knowingly claiming money I knew I wasnt entitled to the last thing I would do is declare it on tax credits. The magistrates were very nice, came back and congratulated me on my Teaching degree and told me to put all this behind me and have an enjoyable life'

[greensaab]

After all this , i.m in court tomorrow. I have no legal representation as i do not qualify for legal aid.

i cannot afford a solitor.There was not one in our area that would allow a monthly payment. They wanted all fees up front. so it's me on my own.

except now i have to take my disabled son as he is not well and husaband not around.

Well Tally Ho !!!