HMRC Bailiffs coming to my business

[whitsend]

I have £2900 in PAYE arrears,

HMRC came on the 1st November and levied on a piece of machine that is essential to my business

and I cannot run my business without it.

 

 

I had a phoned call yesterday to say that if I did not pay half

then and half by Friday they would attend on Monday to take away the machinery.

 

 

I told them that to get out the machinery they would have to take down a wall,

have specialist hiab equipment, a crane and a low loader.

Also as it is wired in directly to the sub station on our industrial est, the electricity people have to come out.

 

 

To which they said if they could not remove it they would sell it remotely on their website

and it would then be upto the buyer to remove it.

 

 

I paid £900 over the phone but they said they would still not give me anymore time

and Friday was the cut off date, if not they would definately attend Monday.

 

 

They are also charging me £20 per phone call.

I there anything I can do to stop them selling this piece of equipment as it will close my business

and put 4 people out of work.

 

 

I thought they could not take any essential items of equipment to allow you to run your business.

[Scrapper]

How old is the arrears? What tax years?

 

Have you had any correspondence? If so when?

 

Thanks

Scrapper Coco

[danboy381]

This requires urgent action. There are numerous options available to you that will stop any further action so don't panic. Is your business Ltd? Is there any chance of you being able to meet their demands in time?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

I have £2900 in PAYE arrears, HMRC came on the 1st November and levied on a piece of machine that is essential to my business and I cannot run my business without it. I had a phoned call yesterday to say that if I did not pay half then and half by Friday they would attend on Monday to take away the machinery. I told them that to get out the machinery they would have to take down a wall, have specialist hiab equipment, a crane and a low loader. Also as it is wired in directly to the sub station on our industrial est, the electricity people have to come out.

 

They are tryng it on, HMCS is unlikely to be able to sell undustrial equipment. Is the hardware leased? if yes, then it cannot be used as a lien for a debt. That is quite a small debt for such aggressive action. Speak to HMRC and offer a reasonable settlement, or start firing staff to pay for it. (use the redundancy rules un the employment act).

[tomtubby]

The statutory regulations confirm that goods would be EXEMPT from seizure if they were you YOUR USE PERSONALLY in the course of your business or employment.

 

This means that as long as the item was ONLY used the YOU then it would be exempt from seizure.

 

If the items is used by ANY OTHER staff members, then you cannot claim exemption.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The statutory regulations confirm.

 

What regulations? link please.

[tomtubby]

The relevant Court of Appeal case is in the matter of Toseland Business Suppies Ltd v Bishop.

 

The starting point with HMRC distraint can be found in the link below and it is best to look under the heading of Tools of the Trade.

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/DMBM655110.htm

[whitsend]

Yes we are a limited company,

the debt is a couple of years old,

as non of my staff pay much tax now as they only work part time.

 

The equipment in question a a kiln as we make ceramics and without a kiln to fire the ceramics we can't carry on.

Do I have to give them entry.

 

This is my own fault really as I have kept thinking I would get enough money in to pay the debt,

but due to bad debts and the bank withdrawing out overdraft and demanding it paid back over 12 months,

we have just never had the spare funds, we are only a small business.

 

Would paying the £900 I have paid to the bailiffs help if I tried ringing HMRC again. Last time they did not want to know. Each time they said I had to pay or else basically.

 

Yes we are a limited company.

 

Yes we are a limited company, but we do not have the funds for this due to having to pay holiday pay and yet again customers have not paid their accounts yet this month. Like I said I have paid them just over £900 which leaves £2000

 

Tax year is 2009/2010. I have a lot of correspondence over the last 12 months but everytime I have tried to make an arrangement they have asked for unreasonable amounts, basically half immediately and half in 1 month.

 

I have tried in the past to talk to HMRC and all I get is no sorry pay now, you have had enough time.

 

 

Making people redundant would not really help as I only have 3 part time staff.

I can make a the debt in 2 payments January and February.

 

 

When they come Monday I'm worried they are going to start knocking down walls and jigger picking to floor up to get the kiln out.

 

 

Also the whole industrial estate has to be turned off from the electrical sub station.

Last time we moved this equipment, it cost over 7k and that was 7 years ago and did do quite a bit of damage to it as it is lined with 1ft if fire bricks which get broken and fall out when the kiln is picked up by the crane.

 

The people who have been given the job of coming in and removing and selling this equipment is Butters Jon Bee,

they specialise in selling industrial equipment,

but they do not have another sale until the end of January.

 

 

If they do not take the equipment and sell it remotely, as they say they will if they can't remove it,

 

 

can I still pay it off in January so they can't sell it.

 

 

Although I doubt they will have much interest in it as it is quite a bespoke piece of equipment and pottery kilns of this size are not really sort after.

 

 

It was originally given to me if I paid to move it, as it cost so much to move and they had to get it out of the building before the lease was up.

[tomtubby]

I am sure that this item is EXEMPT. Please so have a good read of the relevant section in the following link from HMRC themselves:

 

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/DMBM655110.htm

[whitsend]

I have had a look at this that link and it says they can distrain on these if there is no other distrainable goods, which there isn't as everything is based around clay and moulds. So there is benches, a few hand tools and plaster moulds.

 

How do I go about telling them it is exempt. Does it make any difference that I bought the kiln personally before I set up the business and there is nothing on the books for this only the installation costs.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/DMBM655110.htm

 

These aren't statutory regulations. Its general considerations for bailiffs.

[tomtubby]

I have provided the case law for this which is Toseland Building Supplies Ltd v Bishop (t/a Bishop Groundworks).

 

The hearing date was 28th October 1993 and was heard in the Court of Appeal ( Civil Division) and the appeal judges had to consider the interpreation of Section 138 (a) of the Supreme Court Act 1981.

 

PS: Bishop lost the case as he confirmed to the court that the JCB digger which had been seized was also used by another employee on two consecutive days and therefore, he could not rely upon the wording in the legislation which was that goods cannot be seized if they are:

 

"such tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment as are necessary to that person for use personally by him in his employment or vocation"....

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Case law and statutory regulations are two different things.

[kurvaface]

I think you should let your MP know about this too....

 

HMRC seems to be behaving in a way that is contrary to the Government's message of supporting small business!

 

20 Quid per phone call is disgusting.....

[ploddertom]

Not trying to make light of what is happening but if they did sell the kiln and there is not much interest if any, then there is nothing to stop you buying it back at a knock down price. Alternatively get someone to buy it for you. Just a thought.

 

PT

[whitsend]

Thought of doing that, as I cannot see there being any interest, but I have done a satutory declaration with the help of tomtubby to say the kiln is mine and does not belong to the company so therefore exempt from seizure. Hoping to get that off to them tomorrow to stop them coming at all.

[whitsend]

Faxed over stat dec today plus offer to pay £200 per month on covering letter. Explained in the covering letter that the kiln my property not the businesses, also that they would have to take down the side of the building and hire a 10 ton crane and low loader to move it as well as having to get in the electric people to shut down the industrial est sub station. Asked for them to acknowledge receipt of fax by email but have not recieved one yet. They will probably turn up Monday with a transit van and a screwdriver.

[brassnecked]

Faxed over stat dec today plus offer to pay £200 per month on covering letter. Explained in the covering letter that the kiln my property not the businesses, also that they would have to take down the side of the building and hire a 10 ton crane and low loader to move it as well as having to get in the electric people to shut down the industrial est sub station. Asked for them to acknowledge receipt of fax by email but have not recieved one yet. They will probably turn up Monday with a transit van and a screwdriver.

 

You are dealing with droids, who have no concept of what removal and storage /sale of industrial equipment entails. The droids in the office you are dealing with probably think of a kiln as a glorified oven, and don't rfealise that they can be built into a building, or even BE the building like an old Staffordshire Potteries bottle kiln

 

Hopefully they will see sense and give you the time to pay them off.

[whitsend]

Hi

 

It is nice that someone know what a bottle kiln is, I remember them well and I am probably one of the few people that remembers firing them. The company that supposed to be dealing with this is in Staffordshire so should know better, but as there is very few large kilns left, in working order, as most are in the old derelict factories, I don't think they realise that it is not really removable, it would also do it quite a lot of damage. When I first had it installed it had to have quite a bit of work done to repair damage caused while in storage and being craned on and off a low loader. But I am hoping it will not come to that as the stat dec clearly says that I acquired the kiln almost 1 year before I started my business. What I do find unbelievable is that HMRC would close a business making 4 people redundant, which would happen without the kiln, all for £2000.

[brassnecked]

Hi

 

It is nice that someone know what a bottle kiln is, I remember them well and I am probably one of the few people that remembers firing them. The company that supposed to be dealing with this is in Staffordshire so should know better, but as there is very few large kilns left, in working order, as most are in the old derelict factories, I don't think they realise that it is not really removable, it would also do it quite a lot of damage. When I first had it installed it had to have quite a bit of work done to repair damage caused while in storage and being craned on and off a low loader. But I am hoping it will not come to that as the stat dec clearly says that I acquired the kiln almost 1 year before I started my business. What I do find unbelievable is that HMRC would close a business making 4 people redundant, which would happen without the kiln, all for £2000.

 

They want your £2,000 more badly than a few million from Vodafone imho

The problem is that many of the old fashioned Tax Inspectors have gone, to be replaced by call centre drones who work to a script. the evidence of a fall in standards is the PAYE miscalculation debacle, and there will be a few pensioners on state pension being threatened with distraint for their £600 or so underpayments very soon

[whitsend]

Yeah, and if it wasn't for the bank demanding their 7k overdraft facility back, this money would be paid no problem, even with customers not paying there accounts.

[brassnecked]

Banks and bailiffs the double scourge.

 

hope they see sense and the stat dec is effective as a stop to their plans.

[whitsend]

Well if they come Monday the kiln will be 1200 deg c. So even with a JCB, Crane and low loader it ain't going anywhere.

[whitsend]

Getting very nervous now, tomorrow is the day they should come to remove the kiln, I have sent them the stat dec saying tbe kiln belongs to me not the company by fax and by hand but have received no reply. Dreading them still turning up still. As a woman I don't fancy taking on a couple of bailiffs bully boys, although they have to get past my dog first.