Cap1 & CCA return

[ian1969uk]

uni, push them on Sections 59 and 85. They have as good as admitted they don't comply with Section 85.

 

Section 85

 

Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

 

They have said they don't send the terms and conditions, so they have admitted non-compliance.

[car2403]

OFT response today.

 

 

 

Dear Sir

Consumer Credit Act 1974

Re: (s63 & s77) - Copy of agreements

I refer to our telephone conversation in relation to the above.

Having spoken to more experienced colleagues on this issue, majority seem to take the view that the intention of the law is for the creditor to provide a copy of the text of the agreement not the actual copy that was signed. Meaning that the copy provided does not have to show the names and signatures of parties to the agreement.

However the debtor may request for a copy of the signed agreement but there are certain circumstances where the creditor does not have to provide this.

It does appear that only court can rule on this issue. Please click on the web links below for more relevant information:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1988/Uksi_19882047_en_1.htm

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1989/Uksi_19890591_en_1.htm

I hope this helps.

Yours faithfully

Adesola Popoola

Enquiries and Preliminary Investigations

 

 

**********************************************************************

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they

are addressed. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify

[email protected] immediately.

 

The Office of Fair Trading

Fleetbank House, 2-6 Salisbury Square, London EC4Y 8JX

Switchboard (020) 7211 8000

Web Site: The Office of Fair Trading: making markets work well for consumers

 

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept

for the presence of computer viruses.

 

So, they bottle it again...

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Section 85

 

Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

 

They have said they don't send the terms and conditions, so they have admitted non-compliance.

 

Can someone explain this one a bit better

 

HAK

[car2403]

Can someone explain this one a bit better

 

HAK

 

It means terms and conditions, (Original, allowing variation, and current versions) and anything else mentioned in the agreement, IMHO.

[patrickq1]

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations

 

The draft Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2007 impose a blanket ban on unfair commercial practices. They state that a misleading action or misleading omission will amount to an unfair commercial practice.

A commercial practice becomes a misleading action, and therefore a criminal offence, if it:

• "Contains false information and is therefore untruthful […] or if it or its overall presentation in any way deceives or is likely to deceive the typical consumer […], even if the information is factually correct; and
  
• causes or is likely to cause the typical consumer to take a transactional decision he would not have taken otherwise."

[patrickq1]

would some of these terms apply to egg

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999

 

 

SCHEDULE 2Regulation 5(5)

 

 

 

INDICATIVE AND NON-EXHAUSTIVE LIST OF TERMS WHICH MAY BE REGARDED AS UNFAIR

 

1. Terms which have the object or effect of-

 

(b) inappropriately excluding or limiting the legal rights of the consumer vis-à-vis the seller or supplier or another party in the event of total or partial non-performance or inadequate performance by the seller or supplier of any of the contractual obligations, including the option of offsetting a debt owed to the seller or supplier against any claim which the consumer may have against him;

 

© making an agreement binding on the consumer whereas provision of services by the seller or supplier is subject to a condition whose realisation depends on his own will alone;

 

(d) permitting the seller or supplier to retain sums paid by the consumer where the latter decides not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from the seller or supplier where the latter is the party cancelling the contract;

 

(e) requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation;

 

(f) authorising the seller or supplier to dissolve the contract on a discretionary basis where the same facility is not granted to the consumer, or permitting the seller or supplier to retain the sums paid for services not yet supplied by him where it is the seller or supplier himself who dissolves the contract;

 

(g) enabling the seller or supplier to terminate a contract of indeterminate duration without reasonable notice except where there are serious grounds for doing so;

 

(h) automatically extending a contract of fixed duration where the consumer does not indicate otherwise, when the deadline fixed for the consumer to express his desire not to extend the contract is unreasonably early;

 

(i) irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which he had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract;

 

(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;

 

(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided;

[tifo]

the intention of the law is for the creditor to provide a copy of the text of the agreement not the actual copy that was signed. Meaning that the copy provided does not have to show the names and signatures of parties to the agreement.

However the debtor may request for a copy of the signed agreement but there are certain circumstances where the creditor does not have to provide this.

 

Meaning they could make up what was in the agreement and sign it off as an accurate representation. As no name and signature is required, how do they prove it is ours?

[andrew1]

Meaning they could make up what was in the agreement and sign it off as an accurate representation. As no name and signature is required, how do they prove it is ours?

 

...but surely, they still need the original to prosecute if it went to court, not just some Blue Peter affair? So if they haven't got it now, they won't have it for court.

[Having_A_Knightmare]

It means terms and conditions, (Original, allowing variation, and current versions) and anything else mentioned in the agreement, IMHO.

 

Sorry Car I ment section 85 of the act.

 

I agree with the T&C

 

HAK

[reallymadwoman]

(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;

 

(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided;

 

Isn't this exactly what Egg are doing - changing from a running credit account to a fixed sum account without a valid reason?

[patrickq1]

That Is What I Thought They Were Doing How Else Can They Request Payment Unless Since They Decided To Cancel The Contract And Re Write The Rules Or Terms Of Service Making This A New Non Negoiated Contract,so Your Own Negotions Would Consist Of £1.00 Per Month Take It Or Leave It Egg

Patrickq1

[Having_A_Knightmare]

This is a classic you could not write it!!

 

Did the Section 78(1) request and got back this:

 

 

 

I worte to them about the copy been crap under the copy docs 1983 etc...

 

Got back this....

 

 

Its not unreaonable to expect a deteriotion to the filming:D

Any Comments

 

HAK

[patrickq1]

what on earth does it mean they have discharged their responsibility, have they sold your account on ?

[un1boy]

uni, push them on Sections 59 and 85. They have as good as admitted they don't comply with Section 85.

 

Section 85

 

Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

 

They have said they don't send the terms and conditions, so they have admitted non-compliance.

 

Thanks Ian - how does it work though when they say that the T&C's are published online and therefore available at all times?

[Having_A_Knightmare]

what on earth does it mean they have discharged their responsibility, have they sold your account on ?

 

Hi Patrick

 

It is still with Barclaycard (Mercers)

 

HAK

[Jeff2000]

what on earth does it mean they have discharged their responsibility, have they sold your account on ?

 

 

Hi,

 

 

I think they are trying to say that as far as they are concerned, they have complied with the s78 request!

 

 

Jeff.

[Jeff2000]

Hello everybody,

 

 

Well, three days ago I received my f*** off letter from Egg.

 

So, what do you think has arrived in the post today?

 

 

 

Yes, that's right. A BRAND NEW EGG CARD!

 

 

Regards, Jeff.

[patrickq1]

lol i wonder jeff if you have some new updated T&Cs with it ,now then dont you have a chance to re negotiate the new contract ?? a case of they dont know their ass from their t**ts

oops

patrickq1

[Jeff2000]

lol i wonder jeff if you have some new updated T&Cs with it ,now then dont you have a chance to re negotiate the new contract ?? a case of they dont know their ass from their t**ts

oops

patrickq1

 

 

Hi patrick,

 

 

Just as others have previously mentioned, there are no T's & C's included.

 

Also, no copy of the agreement as per s85!

 

 

I'm also thinking of attempting to activate the card. Just to see if they really don't know their a*** from their elbow!

 

 

Jeff.

[ian1969uk]

Thanks Ian - how does it work though when they say that the T&C's are published online and therefore available at all times?

 

It clearly says they shall 'give' it to you, meaning they must send it to you, not just post it somewhere and expect you to find it.

 

If I left a tenner somewhere on the offchance you might find it, would you say I had 'given' it to you?

 

Nope, and by the same token, Egg have not given us the documents referred to in the agreement by simply posting them online. The 'giving' of the documents must be tied to the care reissue, not just some generic fact that they are available on the website.

 

Remember, this was written in 1974 before the internet exisited, and has not been amended in any subsequent regulations, so it stands exactly as it was written then.

[ian1969uk]

Hi patrick,

 

 

Just as others have previously mentioned, there are no T's & C's included.

 

Also, no copy of the agreement as per s85!

 

 

I'm also thinking of attempting to activate the card. Just to see if they really don't know their a*** from their elbow!

 

 

Jeff.

 

Don't. Just keep the card as it is, attached to the flyer, as it will prove their non-compliane with section 85.

[ian1969uk]

Can someone explain this one a bit better

 

HAK

 

 

Go allllllllll the way back to the first post of this thread. Section 85 was what started this!

[car2403]

This is a classic you could not write it!!

 

Did the Section 78(1) request and got back this:

 

 

 

I worte to them about the copy been crap under the copy docs 1983 etc...

 

Got back this....

 

 

Its not unreaonable to expect a deteriotion to the filming:D

Any Comments

 

HAK

 

Replace that with; "sorry, we don't have the original and are hoping that you aren't switched on enough to challenge our document management system (which isn't compliant with the DPA or the CCA) as we don't want to write this balance off, but want to make your life a misery by Defaulting you anyway..."

 

Blah, blah, blah...

[car2403]

Hello everybody,

 

 

Well, three days ago I received my f*** off letter from Egg.

 

So, what do you think has arrived in the post today?

 

 

 

Yes, that's right. A BRAND NEW EGG CARD!

 

 

Regards, Jeff.

 

 

LOL!

 

What's the expiry date? 31 days, perhaps?

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Replace that with; "sorry, we don't have the original and are hoping that you aren't switched on enough to challenge our document management system (which isn't compliant with the Data Protection Act or the CCA) as we don't want to write this balance off, but want to make your life a misery by Defaulting you anyway..."

 

Blah, blah, blah...

 

So If this went to Court

A- Would it be thrown out for been unreadable?

B- If they brought the film with them would a judge exept it.?

 

HAK