Cap1 & CCA return

[pedross]

DD

 

If "went" was the correct verb then ask yourself "Where did the school bell went to?"

 

BD

 

When you find out Diddykipling let me know and I will check if the school clock is still going.

[MAGDA]

I sent a CCA request to Weightmans for an old Waitrose store card a while back, and they responded with a copy of some t&c's and statements for the last year. I realise they can send a document which reflects what the agreement would have looked like and leave off information such as signature, that has always been the case, but it should have the debtor's name and address on it, for example.

 

I queried the document they had sent at the time and received this reply today:

 

"Please refer to s78(1) of the CCA 1974 which requires our client to provide a copy of the executed agreement..... (if any). Furthermore, reg 3(2) of the CCA (cancellation Notices and copies of docs) regs 1983 allows that certain items may be omitted from such copies, including sig box and signature. Therefore the copy of the executed agreement they must supply is a copy, but need not be a photocopy of the signed agreement."

 

I realise this has always been the case, they can omit certain info, but in this case it doesn't even have our name and address on it, just generic t&cs. Any ideas on how to respond in light of the Manchester Test cases? Or should I just do as I usually would?

 

Many thanks, Magda

[diddydicky]

 

when i got my first job the foreman said "your'e late- the hooters gone"

 

I said "really, who pinched it?"

 

he said "no, i mean - don't you know what time we start work here"

 

i said "no, you are always working when i get here"!!

[Bigdebtor]

DD - I genuinely did laugh out loud at your reply. It will go in my libarary of "old duffer" jokes for my grandchildren

 

BD

 

PS Is it playtime just now?

 

PPS - I've just remember night school is just for adults - so were did YOU went with the school bell at that time of night?

[Peterbard]

Can any of you guys help me out on this please. Just received a made up agreement in response to my s87 request. It is headed Fixed-sum loan agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974.

 

When it is actually a restricted use debtor creditor loan interst free and no advance paument -still regulated by the CCA of course. May even be a restricted use debtor creditor supplier agreement.

 

Would their wording [ie fixed sum loan] make it unenforceable in any way?

 

Hi

Are you sure it is regulated if it doesnt have a TTC(interest)?

 

Peter

[diddydicky]

that's funny bigdebtor, - my 4 yr old grandchild calls me an old duffer!

 

kid goes up to his granded and says

 

" can you make a noise like a frog grandad"

 

grandad says "probably, why?"

 

the kid says

 

"cos my dad says when you croak we 're all going to disney"!

[diddydicky]

sorry folks - promise to behave now

[Desperate Daniella]

For Pedross:

 

I did a poem yesterday

And you’ve done one today,

We could start a new thread

Keep CAG out the red

If we publish and make people pay!

We could write a collection -

No agent’s rejection! -

And then non-Caggers would see

That we really can help

Make DCAs yelp

And we don’t even charge a fee.

So now is the time

To pen your own rhyme

About AIC, Wescot, and more.

The names we know well,

But our rights we can tell,

And we know how to show them door.

Shall we start a Poetry thread?

[Bigdebtor]

DD

 

I didn't promise!

 

Things getting worse in schools? We used to have gym slip mums - now gym slip grandads!

[diddydicky]

[lookinforinfo]

Hi Peter, thanks for your reply-and not in verse. McGonagle will be turning in his grave.

Yes it is regulated. It is the rump of an older sum that was then made interest free.

 

Tried to PM you, but you are not accepting them I see.

Edited February 4, 2010 by lookinforinfo

[means2anend]

Can any of you guys help me out on this please. Just received a made up agreement in response to my s87 request. It is headed Fixed-sum loan agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974.

 

When it is actually a restricted use debtor creditor loan interst free and no advance paument -still regulated by the CCA of course. May even be a restricted use debtor creditor supplier agreement.

 

Would their wording [ie fixed sum loan] make it unenforceable in any way?

 

 

Lookinforinfo

 

the answer to that question will definitely be found in either Consumer Credit Agreements Regulations 1983 and/or Consumer Credit (Agreements) (Amendment) Regulations 2004

 

Look in the schedules as to form and content regarding ''ALL TYPES OF AGREEMENT''. and look across the coluimns..it will tell you what form of heading is required for what type of agreement.

 

I cannot specifically direct you there as I am have not got the legislation in front of me so I am going on memory...but you WILL find it in one or both of them.

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae:)

[means2anend]

I sent a CCA request to Weightmans for an old Waitrose store card a while back, and they responded with a copy of some t&c's and statements for the last year. I realise they can send a document which reflects what the agreement would have looked like and leave off information such as signature, that has always been the case, but it should have the debtor's name and address on it, for example.

 

I queried the document they had sent at the time and received this reply today:

 

"Please refer to s78(1) of the CCA 1974 which requires our client to provide a copy of the executed agreement..... (if any). Furthermore, reg 3(2) of the CCA (cancellation Notices and copies of docs) regs 1983 allows that certain items may be omitted from such copies, including sig box and signature. Therefore the copy of the executed agreement they must supply is a copy, but need not be a photocopy of the signed agreement."

 

I realise this has always been the case, they can omit certain info, but in this case it doesn't even have our name and address on it, just generic t&cs. Any ideas on how to respond in light of the Manchester Test cases? Or should I just do as I usually would?

 

Many thanks, Magda

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) 1983

 

Reg3(1)- Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations. every copy of an executed agreement....or other document referred to in the Act SHALL be a true copy thereof

 

(2)-There may be omitted from any such copy -

(a) any information included in an executed agreement....or other document relating to the debtor...only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to form and content of the document of which it is a copy.

 

They have applied this Regulation out of context by applying only the first line of (2) and (a).On a proper construction of the WHOLE of Reg 3 what it is actually saying is this...

 

Information can only be omitted to the extent permitted by regulation and not omit information that is still required to be included in the agreement as prescribed under the Act otherwise as said in (1) it no longer is a true copy.Notice the word SHALL [i emphasised it]

 

A Reading of Carey v HSBC supports this analysis through Judicial backing.

 

At Para 12: the Judge draws attention to the Consumer Credit Agreement Regulations 1983 and to para 2 schedule 1,name postal address of both parties is required as it is a PRESCRIBED TERM.

 

At Para 16: Again Judge emphasises that according to the fact that it is a Prescribed Term it cannot be omitted unless the Regulation says so.

 

At Para 60 (8) the judge does say that the address may not seem that important to the debtor...because s/he would be expected to know and at the very least this is a trivial matter.However the name and address must still be on the copy.

 

At Para 61: Judge explains as to HOW the address may be put on the agreement

 

The main point the Judge is saying is that the actual PHYSICAL DOCUMENT that originally contained the PRESCRIBED TERMS may not exist physically.Therefore a photocopy of that original document executed at the time when s62 and 63 applied earlier in time is not possible and is not required.

 

However the CONTENTS that were on that PHYSICAL DOCUMENT at the TIME the agreement was made must be an ''HONEST and ACCURATE COPY'' and must be done in GOOD FAITH

 

This appears to be the only limitation on the creditors...BUT I believe they are gonna have a difficult time in being honest AND ACCURATE as they got a lot to lose if they are found out reconstituting fraudulent documents.

 

The OLDER the agreement then the BETTER.

 

Those contents may be reconstituted/resurrected from other sources they may have that contain information that was contemporaneous at the TIME the agreement was originally made.

 

So for instance if you moved since the time you made that agreement and they do not put ANY name and address on it or the original address at the 'TIME' of the agreement they are in problems.

 

The Copies Regulations does allow them to omit signature and signature box and date of signature box NOT name and address of CREDITOR and/or DEBTOR

 

Name and .address is just one thing that may be missing you need to check the whole of the document for other terms REQUIRED to be in there that are NOT

 

sorry for prattling on but if you have got the case head for those paras:

 

google carey v hsbc pdf and download and save it or refer back on these posts you will find it somewhere on this thread as a link

 

rg:)ds

 

m2ae

Edited February 4, 2010 by means2anend

[MAGDA]

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) 1983

 

Reg3(1)- Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations. every copy of an executed agreement....or other document referred to in the Act SHALL be a true copy thereof

 

(2)-There may be omitted from any such copy -

(a) any information included in an executed agreement....or other document relating to the debtor...only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to form and content of the document of which it is a copy.

 

They have applied this Regulation out of context by applying only the first line of (2) and (a).On a proper construction of the WHOLE of Reg 3 what it is actually saying is this...

 

Information can only be omitted to the extent permitted by regulation and not omit information that is still required to be included in the agreement as prescribed under the Act otherwise as said in (1) it no longer is a true copy.Notice the word SHALL [i emphasised it]

 

A Reading of Carey v HSBC supports this analysis through Judicial backing.

 

At Para 12: the Judge draws attention to the Consumer Credit Agreement Regulations 1983 and to para 2 schedule 1,name postal address of both parties is required as it is a PRESCRIBED TERM.

 

At Para 16: Again Judge emphasises that according to the fact that it is a Prescribed Term it cannot be omitted unless the Regulation says so.

 

At Para 60 (8) the judge does say that the address may not seem that important to the debtor...because s/he would be expected to know and at the very least this is a trivial matter.However the name and address must still be on the copy.

 

At Para 61: Judge explains as to HOW the address may be put on the agreement

 

The main point the Judge is saying is that the actual PHYSICAL DOCUMENT that originally contained the PRESCRIBED TERMS may not exist physically.Therefore a photocopy of that original document executed at the time when s62 and 63 applied earlier in time is not possible and is not required.

 

However the CONTENTS that were on that PHYSICAL DOCUMENT at the TIME the agreement was made must be an ''HONEST and ACCURATE COPY'' and must be done in GOOD FAITH

 

This appears to be the only limitation on the creditors...BUT I believe they are gonna have a difficult time in being honest AND ACCURATE as they got a lot to lose if they are found out reconstituting fraudulent documents.

 

The OLDER the agreement then the BETTER.

 

Those contents may be reconstituted/resurrected from other sources they may have that contain information that was contemporaneous at the TIME the agreement was originally made.

 

So for instance if you moved since the time you made that agreement and they do not put your name and address on it or the original address at the 'TIME' of the agreement they are in problems.

 

The Copies Regulations does allow them to omit signature and signature box and date of signature box NOT name and address of CREDITOR and/or DEBTOR

 

Name and .address is just one thing that may be missing you need to check the whole of the document for other terms REQUIRED to be in there that are NOT

 

sorry for prattling on but if you have got the case head for those paras:

 

google carey v hsbc pdf and download and save it or refer back on these posts you will find it somewhere on this thread as a link

 

rg:)ds

 

m2ae

 

Hi m2ae, many thanks for the above - you weren't 'prattling' on at all!

 

I did download the Carey judgement a few days ago, and intend to have a good read of it when I have a spare minute, so will look at the paras you mention.

 

Think I will get something off to Weightmans explaining why their response is NOT acceptable and see what I get back.

 

Appreciate your help, Magda

[means2anend]

Hi m2ae, many thanks for the above - you weren't 'prattling' on at all!

 

I did download the Carey judgement a few days ago, and intend to have a good read of it when I have a spare minute, so will look at the paras you mention.

 

Think I will get something off to Weightmans explaining why their response is NOT acceptable and see what I get back.

 

Appreciate your help, Magda

 

 

A word of friendly advice...MAKE SURE you emphasise the NEED FOR AN HONEST AND ACCURATE COPY...but that in the meantime you will be doing your best to search for your copy of the original and that in the event that the 'true copy' they send you should differ materially from your potentially found copy...FURTHER QUESTIONS may be asked...this will make sure that either you DO get an 'HONEST AND ACCURATE copy' or that you will be 'left alone'

 

Cite the regulations and paras verbatim if you have to or just redact the paras in your own word but DIRECT Weightman's to the Authority. It lends weight to your argument.

 

Look to Reg 3 4 5 and 6 especially Reg 6 on what constitutes an unfair practice Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 if they keep silent in not telling you whether they DO NOT have an 'honest and accurate copy'.It is arguable that this may amount to an unfair commercial practice.

 

The temptation to commit fraud on their part is enormous and we are watching!!!

 

rgds

 

m2ae

Edited February 4, 2010 by means2anend

[MAGDA]

Many thanks m2ae, that's very good advice and I'll certainly be acting upon it.

 

regards, Magda

[Jazz_baby]

so if you recieve a credit card agreement does that mean the card will be issued then? or will they do further credit checks etc? I don't fully understand!

[Peterbard]

Hi Peter, thanks for your reply-and not in verse. McGonagle will be turning in his grave.

Yes it is regulated. It is the rump of an older sum that was then made interest free.

 

Tried to PM you, but you are not accepting them I see.

 

HI

 

I see, so the original agreement was a fixed sum loan?

 

Is it still within its term?

 

Peter

[MARTIN3030]

please keep to one thread-your other has been moved to Capital one forums.

[AnimalMagic]

1. How does one make a complaint to the FSA about debt collection companies?

 

2. Other than the BBC news item, is there any other references to use of the unfair relationships legislation in credit agreements and mortgages?

 

Can't seem to find any cases which describe exactly what constitutes an 'unfair relationship'.

[haggis1984]

1. How does one make a complaint to the FSA about debt collection companies?

 

2. Other than the BBC news item, is there any other references to use of the unfair relationships legislation in credit agreements and mortgages?

 

Can't seem to find any cases which describe exactly what constitutes an 'unfair relationship'.

 

Debt collectors are regulated by the OFT - so you're probably best making a complaint to them.

 

For unfair relationships try searching the case law on www.bailii.org.

 

There is mention of unfair relationships in both Mcguffick and Carey:

 

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html&query="unfair+relationship"&method=boolean

 

 

McGuffick v The Royal Bank of Scotland Plc [2009] EWHC 2386 (Comm) (06 October 2009)

Edited February 7, 2010 by haggis1984
Dodgy link

[means2anend]

1. How does one make a complaint to the FSA about debt collection companies?

 

2. Other than the BBC news item, is there any other references to use of the unfair relationships legislation in credit agreements and mortgages?

 

Can't seem to find any cases which describe exactly what constitutes an 'unfair relationship'.

 

 

click on this you will be spoilt for choice...you should find what you're looking for....I did not specifically direct you to any one thing...so you can choose from a wide selection exactly what interests you personally.

 

http://www.oft.gov.uk/search

 

...and put 'unfair relationship guide' in the search box at top ...and tick which format you want it in ...i advise to download in pdf format so you can save and read at your leisure..look for the guide post judgement Manchester Cases..you got a lot of pages to search so you should find what you're looking for.

 

There appears to be references to cases involving unfair relationships...

 

rgds

 

m2ae

Edited February 7, 2010 by means2anend
realised there ARE references to cases

[means2anend]

1. How does one make a complaint to the FSA about debt collection companies?

 

2. Other than the BBC news item, is there any other references to use of the unfair relationships legislation in credit agreements and mortgages?

 

Can't seem to find any cases which describe exactly what constitutes an 'unfair relationship'.

 

 

Unfair Relationship is pretty new very few cases have been tested as to date in court

But to get an 'idea' of Commercial Practices which may be considered Unfair and those that in the Circumstances are always considered unfair...look to

 

Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

Sections 1-6

and Schedule 1 Part 1 (always considered unfair)

Edited February 7, 2010 by means2anend

[AnimalMagic]

Thanks Guys

 

Still having difficulty finding what is legally meant by unfair relationship...

 

Debt collectors are regulated by the OFT - so you're probably best making a complaint to them.

 

It's actually a mortgage company I wish to complain about...

[lookinforinfo]

HI I see, so the original agreement was a fixed sum loan?

 

Is it still within its term?Peter

 

 

Yes Peter, it still has about 5 years to run.