Cap1 & CCA return

[Missy06]

"DO" see ya point

 

"movin on" wot topic for dessert Lol!!

,

 

Moving on....what's the next step for those who've received a copy of an application form with a signature on it....not a credit agreement with a signature?

 

Secondly, is there anyone with a template for this step?!?

 

Thirdly, I've received docs from HSBC with everything but a document with my signature on it. Pls what do I do next?!?

 

Thx!

[Suetonius]

You could write to the creditor and explain that you do not consider it enforceable

[BlueSquirrel]

Hi Muffintop

 

The only thing they can't do whilst they are in default of a CCA request is 'enforce' the agreement.

 

Whilst we feel that should include collection activities etc, they will only accept it as meaning court proceedings.

 

I have had a bit of a discussion on a thread a while ago about disputes on an account. I can't remember who it was with, which is really annoying me, so if you read this please nudge my knat memory! Anyway, from what I remember, it would seem that an account is only in dispute if you are disputing the amount owed. What we are doing is arguing that the agreements are naff, or that they have not sent them etc. In order to set the account into a dispute, you would need something more along the lines of charges, as this is disputing the balance.

 

There is nothing in the Act to stop them collecting, only preventing them enforcing.

 

On the bright side, they can't get a CCJ/charging order without taking you to court, and they're going to have a merry old time in there if they don't have an agreement.

 

With MBNA, they seem to follow a fairly rigid pattern. 7 months of non-payment (or in our case paying what we can afford rather than what they want), will register a default and get the account sold on/managed by a DCA. Despite numerous allusions to court, we've never got near one (famous last words:rolleyes:)

 

It sounds like their standard threatogram, so don't go thinking they are about to turn up on the doorstep with a claim form just yet!

 

I think the letter that we send out is more what we feel they shouldn't be doing, as there is nothing that I have found so far (and I've asked this on a lot of threads!) to say they can't do the things we say. That said, I don't think there's any harm in sending it anyway - it does seem to wind them up:D

 

I am REALLY confused now. So the template letter we send out saying the account is in dispute and all the thingsk they can't do, that is all a bluff then? Can they still instruct DCA's, add interest and register defaults?

[foolishgirl]

Boy, I only wanted to correct a common misconception about the FOS and credit agreements.

 

Didn't realise it would take so long...

 

:D Hope the headache's better now!

[Suetonius]

Yes thank you, now that I have fully explained my opinion and the relevent law, regulations etc that confirm that the FOS can't make a determination

[phatram]

Anyone got a CCA non compliance letter pls?

[foolishgirl]

Here you go...

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to my letter dated xxx that was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices, received by you on xxxx, making a formal request for a true copy of the original credit agreement for the above account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested documents. This deadline has now passed & I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

As I am sure you are aware, the absence of an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, renders the account completely unenforceable in law & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect.

 

I draw your attention to the legal requirement that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

 

• You must not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You must not add any further interest or charges to this account.
  
• You must not pass this account to any third party.
  
• You must not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You must not issue a default notice on this account
  

I hereby give you notice that if you proceed with any of the above actions, I will file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service.

[phatram]

Here you go...

 

 

Dear Sirs

 

I refer to my letter dated xxx that was delivered via Recorded Delivery to your offices, received by you on xxxx, making a formal request for a true copy of the original credit agreement for the above account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77-79).

 

You are reminded that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not, as defined under Section 189 of the CCA 1974.

 

Under the terms of the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to provide the requested documents. This deadline has now passed & I have not received the requested documents from you.

 

As I am sure you are aware, the absence of an agreement that does not contain all of the prescribed terms, and/or is not signed by the debtor, renders the account completely unenforceable in law & I therefore consider that this account is in dispute with immediate effect.

 

I draw your attention to the legal requirement that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and therefore the following applies:

 

• You must not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You must not add any further interest or charges to this account.
  
• You must not pass this account to any third party.
  
• You must not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You must not issue a default notice on this account
  

I hereby give you notice that if you proceed with any of the above actions, I will file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service.

Many thanks

Mrs P

[foolishgirl]

YW, Mrs P

[Missy06]

Foolishgirl,

 

thanks for the template!

[Missy06]

Suetonius, Phatram, Foolisgirl, Lexis2000 could you all please confirm if I'm correct on the following; it'll be a great summary for most of us. Here goes:

 

1) In issuing the CCA letter, the aim is to DELAY PAYING OFF AN ACCOUNT IN ONES OWN TIME;

 

2) Although one delays paying off the account, defaults maybe lawfully issued on ones credit file and DCAs may still chase one for the debt.

 

3) In issuing the CCA letter, an individual CAN'T AVOID PAYING OFF THE RELATED DEBT; no matter when, the debt has to be paid eventually.

 

4) If one has already received a refund of charges for an account, the account can still be said to be in dispute if the bank can't find the CCA.

 

5) If a default has already been registered on an account, one can pay back as and when wants to on the account; afterall, the damage has been done. Or alternatively, one can just make an arrangement to make token amounts of say £10 p/m. Afterall, one still has to clear the debt?!?

 

6) If a default hasn't been registered, isn't it best to maintain the fact that the account is in dispute and just arrange with the creditor to make token amounts of say £10 p/m?!? Just to save ruining one credit file.

 

7) If the creditor later turns up with a CCA, the individual will owe not only the previous balance, but also any accrued interest on the previous balance which they ask for.

 

Thx in advance!

[phatram]

Our aim is to get revenge on the cheats who ripped us off in 1985.

Natwest Bank.

They have a lot to answer for , business development loan(con), business insurance(con) couldn't claim on it when things went wrong, etc etc

If only we could find the statements from our business account!

Good luck

P

Edited February 22, 2009 by phatram

[car2403]

Suetonius, Phatram, Foolisgirl, Lexis2000 could you all please confirm if I'm correct on the following; it'll be a great summary for most of us. Here goes:

 

1) In issuing the CCA letter, the aim is to DELAY PAYING OFF AN ACCOUNT IN ONES OWN TIME;

 

2) Although one delays paying off the account, defaults maybe lawfully issued on ones credit file and DCAs may still chase one for the debt.

 

3) In issuing the CCA letter, an individual CAN'T AVOID PAYING OFF THE RELATED DEBT; no matter when, the debt has to be paid eventually.

 

4) If one has already received a refund of charges for an account, the account can still be said to be in dispute if the bank can't find the CCA.

 

5) If a default has already been registered on an account, one can pay back as and when wants to on the account; afterall, the damage has been done. Or alternatively, one can just make an arrangement to make token amounts of say £10 p/m. Afterall, one still has to clear the debt?!?

 

6) If a default hasn't been registered, isn't it best to maintain the fact that the account is in dispute and just arrange with the creditor to make token amounts of say £10 p/m?!? Just to save ruining one credit file.

 

7) If the creditor later turns up with a CCA, the individual will owe not only the previous balance, but also any accrued interest on the previous balance which they ask for.

 

Thx in advance!

 

I've responded to this on that other thread.

 

Unclear on why you'd ask the same questions on different threads, unless you want different answers, that is.

 

[phatram]

I've responded to this on that other thread.

 

Unclear on why you'd ask the same questions on different threads, unless you want different answers, that is.

 

 

Just what I thought car.

So I've answered in not quite the same way.

[cab1ne]

if an agreement is missing any of

THE PRESCRIBED TERMS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 61(1) (0) AND 127(3) OF THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

to be precise the Dates of repayments; thus relieving the agreement of any forcibility.

 

"now the bit"

the creditor has informed me that (via phone call today at 09.03am)) the agreement can be forced by them (in his words) we dont need no stupid court orders or a judge to do it niether, "shocked was i"

and i'll tell you why Mr Cab1ne, "Whooooooo Mr" if you would care to look at the agreement and check the dates of signatures then tell me what you see, "OK" Mr Creditor the dates show you signed the Agreement on the 7th of August 2006. There you go then Mr Cab1ne its in black and white and you have signed to agree to that aswell:confused: "i have signed to agree to what" the agreement clearly shows that your dates of payment are on the 7th of every month and every one month there after till the agreement is paid up. "shocked again" i just said could you correspond in writing please as also stated in my letter. thankyou, goodbye

 

Errrrrrr!!! "panic":confused: can they really do that

[foolishgirl]

the creditor has informed me that (via phone call today at 09.03am)) the agreement can be forced by them (in his words) we dont need no stupid court orders or a judge to do it niether....

Errrrrrr!!! "panic":confused: can they really do that

 

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

 

Don't panic Mr Cab1ne

 

Sit tight

[cab1ne]

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

 

Don't panic Mr Cab1ne

 

Sit tight

 

Phewwwwwww thought it was over before it started, thnx foolish girl

[AnimalMagic]

How about photoshopping the agreement to say that they pay you £xx per month. Send it to them saying 'As stated on the telephone, there it is in black and white. When can I expect payment?'

[cab1ne]

:D would be nice

[cab1ne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishgirl

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

 

Don't panic Mr Cab1ne :grin:

 

Sit tight

 

what effect would that have on a default notice:confused:

[lexis200]

Suetonius, Phatram, Foolisgirl, Lexis2000 could you all please confirm if I'm correct on the following; it'll be a great summary for most of us. Here goes:

 

1) In issuing the CCA letter, the aim is to DELAY PAYING OFF AN ACCOUNT IN ONES OWN TIME; I only do it to find out if the debt is enforceable, but I can't speak for everyone. I have unenforceable documents from accounts but I am still paying them until I am as sure as I can be that they don't have anything better, so for me it doesn't delay paying them for quite some time.

 

2) Although one delays paying off the account, defaults maybe lawfully issued on ones credit file and DCAs may still chase one for the debt. Yes and no. According to guidelines on fair practise they shouldn't, but it doesn't say they can't. Plus, I haven't had a kosher DN yet that I know of - they all have issues that cause problems if they account is terminated of the back of them.

 

3) In issuing the CCA letter, an individual CAN'T AVOID PAYING OFF THE RELATED DEBT; no matter when, the debt has to be paid eventually. Again, it's not black and white. If the CCA turns up an unenforceable agreement/none at all, then no you don't. It isn't as easy as that though, as they will make your life very hard, and you may end up in court anyway even if they have no hope of winning.

 

4) If one has already received a refund of charges for an account, the account can still be said to be in dispute if the bank can't find the CCA. Have a look at the post I made a couple of pages back with the quote from x20 regarding disputes. It's very interesting, and should answer this question.

 

5) If a default has already been registered on an account, one can pay back as and when wants to on the account; afterall, the damage has been done. Or alternatively, one can just make an arrangement to make token amounts of say £10 p/m. Afterall, one still has to clear the debt?!? You don't need a default to do this. I have been on payment plans for nearly 2 years now - some defaulted straight away (before they would arrange a plan), others have not. I have not been charged interest/charges in that time. Of course, this is only good if you actually can prove you don't have the means to pay them. If you do and just choose not to, you're not going to get very far if/when they take you to court.

 

6) If a default hasn't been registered, isn't it best to maintain the fact that the account is in dispute and just arrange with the creditor to make token amounts of say £10 p/m?!? Just to save ruining one credit file. Again, read the post with x20's info - the account is not in a dispute for the reason you want it to be, so they won't accept this reasoning (as borne out by everyone who has had the 'you have not given valid reason why your account is in dispute' letter from the banks). Also, just going on a plan does not necessarily stop a default. As I mentioned, some banks would only look at a plan once they had defaulted me - never mind the fact up until that point I had not missed any payments!

 

7) If the creditor later turns up with a CCA, the individual will owe not only the previous balance, but also any accrued interest on the previous balance which they ask for. I'd always read it that if they could not find an agreement (as opposed to sending an illegible/unenforceable one, which is a different kettle of fish) they could not then turn up with it six months (or whatever) down the line and add on all the missed charges. I thought they had to take it from the time the default started. However, this is hotly debated and I'm not sure where the legislation is that would be needed to back this up. It could well be the whole 'Chinese Whispers' effect that goes on here a lot - one person types something with confidence, and others take it as gospel. If you are unsure of something, I find it best not to use it as an argument, as there is nothing worse than fighting these institutions and finding what you have said is wrong!

 

Thx in advance!

 

Just to re-iterate the thought in my last para - I only know what I know from reading on here and my own bits of research; I'm by no means an expert and there are others on here with vastly more knowledge:)

 

Lexis:)

Edited February 23, 2009 by lexis200

[lexis200]

May be I am looking at this is a very simplistic way.

 

They way I see and understand it, a credit agreement can either be enforceable or unenforceable. As the FOS does not have the legal power/authority to deem an agreement to be unenforceable, by default it has to consider it enforceable...

 

I don't think I agree with this....(sorry:))

 

The FOS don't have legal rights, they can only give an opinion. That opinion should be based on legal facts if they are available. The facts of enforceable/unenforceable agreements are very clear. If an agreement does not have certain terms on it it is unenforceable. It's that simple. If the FOS are shown such an agreement, and the relevant law to go with it, they should be of the opinion that according to that law, it is currently unenforceable.

 

Why would they have to consider it enforceable if the facts are laid out in front of them, written in legislation, showing why it is not enforceable? You would not be asking them to go out on a limb, but merely to use a bit of common sense and quote what the law says - in essence to form their opinion from fact rather than plucking it out of thin air. They do not need to hold themselves to it (ie currently unenforceable, or unenforecable as it stands, as opposed to just unenforceable)

 

I think car's quote

 

It will never be in the financial institutions interests to have a declaration of unenforceability made against them, so the bias inherent in this "regulator" leads them to refuse to consider the argument rather then consider the merits of the complaint from the complainants point of view.

 

This is where a Court of Law has to differ - and does.

 

is really what it's all about. It's not that they can not make decisions (albeit not legally binding ones), it's that it is not in their best interests to. This is the issue many people have with them.

[Peterbard]

Just to re-iterate the thought in my last para - I only know what I know from reading on here and my own bits of research; I'm by no means an expert and there are others on here with vastly more knowledge:)

 

Lexis:)

 

Hi

 

This has come up in a case i was involved in.The creditor had successfuly convinced the judge that the agreement was enforceable after some weeks of the usual arguments.

The debtor had ceased payments on the account sometime earlier and was under the impression that whilst the creditor was in default due to none issuace of copy, no payments were due.

The judge simply asked where it says this within the act? and pointed out that if an agreement is enforceable it is totally enforceable not just from a particular date and all monies payable on it were due as stated.

 

You may have noticed that the new regs (2006) about copy agreement requirements actually mentions that whilst the creditor is in default they can not charge interest so perhaps there has been some limited attempt to rectify what IMO was an oversite in the orriginal drafting of the act.

 

Regards

Peter

[lexis200]

Thanks Peter:)

 

It looks like I'm mixing regulations up - a perfect example of what I was warning against:rolleyes:

[kellycraig]

Hi all, i am new to this and don't know where to start, i have a credit card and loan, both now in a managed loan with HSBC, i have phoned them and asked them to send me copies of the original copies of the agreements, but this is now the 3rd week that i am waiting.

 

What do i do now, i didn't send a CCA but i phoned them and they said that they would send them to me, but i still haven't received them.

 

Any help and advice for be valuable.

 

Many thanks

 

Kelly