Cap1 & CCA return

[maybelline]

BBC NEWS | Business | Borrowers told to lie about wages

 

just listening to this about the sub-prime market and the 'soft fraud' involved with that market and the mess it creates (my opinion) sorry mods, move this to new sub prime if nec. :)

[conar686]

Sorry guys, but another question to try and clarify the legalities around registering with CRAs. Reading Toms earlier post #9291 does not make me any clearer in relation to this scenario.

 

The debt is sold to a DCA and the words used are "the account you held was purchased" and "legal owner of the account" and "entitled to enforce the original terms of the credit agreement". At the same time they say they are not responsible for under section 77/78 to provide the documents but they will out of the kindness of their heart get it from the OC (I'll deal with their inconsistencies in a nice letter later). They then send an application form, same as what the OC did before .. no CCA.

 

Now the CRA record for the account with the OC has disappeared and a new account has appeared belonging to the DCA with a brand new account number, but start date of the old account. All other payments etc have vanished.

 

My question is twofold, in respect to the two possible scenarios:

1) If the transfer was a full assignment, should it not carry on from the old account's records, with just the creditor changed?

2) If it is not a full assignment can the DCA register a new account at all just for the debt, when there is no agreement/account? And if they are allowed to do so, then I can not see how they can register a default or a late payment when there is no agreement made to pay?

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

Sounds so familiar, I'd be interested in the response, not necessarily on my AK complaint but for 'belt and braces' on my complaint against 'erste crudit'

[Peterbard]

Thanks Peter,

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by assignning solely the debt on an active agreement? How can we know what state the agreement is in, if there was no default notice and the debt was sold on, and the buyer of the debt says they only bought the "debt" and not the "duties" (although some also go on to cheekily say they also have rights to apply interest according to the original agreement). My assumption was that the original contract ends if they sell the debt, but I am not sure now.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

Hi M

 

That is why i said unlikely or impossible.

The point i wa trying to make was that if the assignment of an agreement in total amounts to a variation as defined in the act then the possible action would have to be mentioned within the agreement. The only instance that it wouldnt ( because it doesnt amount to a variation)would be the patrtial or debt only transfer which would as i said be unlikely or impossible sorry if i confused people wasn't my intention.

 

Regards

Peter

[MoonHawk]

No need for sorrow Peter and thanks for the clarification. It takes different words to get a point accross to different people. Some people need diagrams too

 

So are we saying that when an original agreement can not be produced, there is no basis to put together a "partial" assignment and the assignment should be a absolute assignment? If so then some (most) of these assignments are faulty in nature.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[Peterbard]

Sorry guys, but another question to try and clarify the legalities around registering with CRAs. Reading Toms earlier post #9291 does not make me any clearer in relation to this scenario.

 

The debt is sold to a DCA and the words used are "the account you held was purchased" and "legal owner of the account" and "entitled to enforce the original terms of the credit agreement". At the same time they say they are not responsible for under section 77/78 to provide the documents but they will out of the kindness of their heart get it from the OC (I'll deal with their inconsistencies in a nice letter later). They then send an application form, same as what the OC did before .. no CCA.

 

Now the CRA record for the account with the OC has disappeared and a new account has appeared belonging to the DCA with a brand new account number, but start date of the old account. All other payments etc have vanished.

 

My question is twofold, in respect to the two possible scenarios:

1) If the transfer was a full assignment, should it not carry on from the old account's records, with just the creditor changed?

2) If it is not a full assignment can the DCA register a new account at all just for the debt, when there is no agreement/account? And if they are allowed to do so, then I can not see how they can register a default or a late payment when there is no agreement made to pay?

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

Hi Moonhawk this might clear matters up a bit it is from the latest Information Commissioners Office guidklines .

I have found rightly or wrongly that i have had more success using these on credit agencies than quoting regulations this is from the 2007 Guidlines to CRA's and credit providers

 

The ‘sale’ or assignment of debts on defaulted accounts

52 When the rights to a debt are sold to a third party, the lender has to make sure the records with the credit reference agency are accurate, up to date and adequate. If they want information about the debts to continue on the credit reference file they will need to come to an agreement with the purchaser about who is to be responsible for this.

53 If the purchaser agrees to take control of the record, the customer should be informed that the debt has been sold or assigned and to whom. The credit reference agency file should be changed to show the name of the purchaser and that the rights to the debt have been sold or assigned. The purchaser should then make sure the record is kept up to date including changes to the amount still owed. The purchase should not affect how long the record is kept. It should be removed six years after the default.

54 Where the purchaser of the debt does not agree to take control of the record, the original lender, and at least in part the credit reference agency, will remain responsible if the original record is kept on the file. When the debt is sold or assigned, the customer will no longer owe any money to the original lender. If the record is not removed, the sale or assignment should be recorded and the balance should be shown as

zero. The customer should still be told who the debt has been sold or assigned to.

 

 

Best regards

Peter

[pcdoc]

Hi All it's been suggested that I post this here

 

hope I am putting this in the correct section, sorry if I haven't. I also have a problem with the Total cash price, the car was priced at £7995 so I don't have a clue how the total cash price is £8378. I also assume that the interest is calculated on the Amount of loan ie £8278. Because I didn't really look at the copy that was given me, this is the first time I have seen this figure.

 

Unfortunately I have no evidence that the car was £7995 only that my wife was with me.

 

The reason I ask if this CCA is enforcable is after reading this site for sometime I thought that the signature box shbould be on the same page as all the figures etc and not on a separate page, I will, of course stand corrected on this if I am wrong. Furthermore I have only been sent pages 1 & 2 of 3.

 

There is also an error on the agreement where the reg number for the car has been entered incorrectly ie a number is missing, but I assume that can be corrected.

 

Any info would be appreciated

 

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee140/pcdoc69/CCApage1.jpg

 

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee140/pcdoc69/CCApage2.jpg

 

Regards

Pcdoc

[MoonHawk]

Lovely quote there Peter. That is excellent and fills a lot of blanks for me. Thank you.

 

The bit that relates to me then is:

53 If the purchaser agrees to take control of the record, the customer should be informed that the debt has been sold or assigned and to whom. The credit reference agency file should be changed to show the name of the purchaser and that the rights to the debt have been sold or assigned. The purchaser should then make sure the record is kept up to date including changes to the amount still owed. The purchase should not affect how long the record is kept. It should be removed six years after the default.

 

By removing the old data, they have effectively removed the default.

Haave to think how to proceed on this one.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

[patrickq1]

should nt their be a right to re negotiate terms if changed to another company ?

[patrickq1]

got it well some of it lol what about negotiable contract.by this i mean are you not allowed to negotiate your contract in the beginning and if so when do you lose the right to this negotiation

[Peterbard]

Hi All it's been suggested that I post this here

 

hope I am putting this in the correct section, sorry if I haven't. I also have a problem with the Total cash price, the car was priced at £7995 so I don't have a clue how the total cash price is £8378. I also assume that the interest is calculated on the Amount of loan ie £8278. Because I didn't really look at the copy that was given me, this is the first time I have seen this figure.

 

Unfortunately I have no evidence that the car was £7995 only that my wife was with me.

 

The reason I ask if this CCA is enforcable is after reading this site for sometime I thought that the signature box shbould be on the same page as all the figures etc and not on a separate page, I will, of course stand corrected on this if I am wrong. Furthermore I have only been sent pages 1 & 2 of 3.

 

There is also an error on the agreement where the reg number for the car has been entered incorrectly ie a number is missing, but I assume that can be corrected.

 

Any info would be appreciated

 

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee140/pcdoc69/CCApage1.jpg

 

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee140/pcdoc69/CCApage2.jpg

 

Regards

Pcdoc

Hi

 

I have had a look at your agreement. Am i right in assuming you got a trade in or allowance of £100?

The Apr checks out as 19.3% which is on the borderline of the regulations so that is OK. In an agreement prior to May2005 the signature box can be contained anywhere within the document so that is ok.

The Items within the TCC are also as they should be.

Sorry Cant be on further help

 

Best regards

Petr

[Peterbard]

HI

JUst in addition to the above if you recieved this copy as part of a section 77 request the they should have supplied all documents mentioned in the agreement if there is one mssing they have not complied and if you wish you could inform them of this and that they were still in default under the act untill compliance.

 

Regards

Petr

[pcdoc]

Hi guys thanks for the replies.

Yes peter I did get it under S77/78 and those are the only 2 sheets provided. The £100 was the deposit I paid there wasn't any Part-Ex but I still don't know where the extra £383 came from added to the cash price. Should I contact GE and ask them or Link?

 

Also (today) I've made a complaint via the Finance & leasing Assoc, because GE added an HPI entry against the car ie finance secured on the vin & vrm no's from the outset of the agreement, they agreed to remove it over 3 weeks ago and still it remains on the HPI register.

[Vulture_Bank]

Thanks Peter,

 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by assignning solely the debt on an active agreement? How can we know what state the agreement is in, if there was no default notice and the debt was sold on, and the buyer of the debt says they only bought the "debt" and not the "duties" (although some also go on to cheekily say they also have rights to apply interest according to the original agreement). My assumption was that the original contract ends if they sell the debt, but I am not sure now.

 

Best Wishes

MoonHawk

 

came across this just now "in works time"

 

http://www.contractjournal.com/Articles/2006/08/16/51785/legal-the-law-of-assignment.html

 

the above assignment goes on about land however the stuff i highlighted in bold possibly might have some possibilities ? applying generally to assignments

 

(a) could we say the new owner can't add interest

(b) technically as an initial point it could be argued by adding court fees solicitor fees etc from the debtors frame of reference the new owner is "recovering" more than the original owner ???

© can anyone see any angles the team have not pointed out ??

 

 

Proceedings begin

In 2003, the 'upslope' neighbours commenced proceedings against Larkstore and Bess for the damage to their properties. The case was brought before His Honour Judge David Wilcox in the Technology and Construction Court, where an order was made for the determination of specific preliminary issues, including the status and effect of the assignment.

One of the legal problems involved in the case was the relationship between Larkstore and Technotrade. It has long been the position in law that a person who is assigned rights under a contract cannot recover more from the contract-breaker than the assignor could have done had there been no assignment. This principle has never been easy to apply in practice and an analysis of the timing of the events highlights the kind of problem the courts faced.

[patrickq1]

THIS IS A SIMALAR QUESTION TO WHAT I WAS ASKING YESTERDAY,IF THE CONTRACT WAS RE ASSIGNED to another company and more charges were entered the do you not have a right for re negotiation of the contract and also if this is not the case when do you lose the rights to negotiation of a contract ?

just a puzzling thought

patrickq1

[Peterbard]

Hi guys thanks for the replies.

Yes peter I did get it under S77/78 and those are the only 2 sheets provided. The £100 was the deposit I paid there wasn't any Part-Ex but I still don't know where the extra £383 came from added to the cash price. Should I contact GE and ask them or Link?

 

Also (today) I've made a complaint via the Finance & leasing Assoc, because GE added an HPI entry against the car ie finance secured on the vin & vrm no's from the outset of the agreement, they agreed to remove it over 3 weeks ago and still it remains on the HPI register.

 

HI

 

I would query the cash price quoted on the agreement with the dealer.

 

If the agreement was a debtor creditor supplier agreement as per section 12(b)or ©(ie made by the seller in accordance with apre-existing agreement with the credit company) and if the dealer was in error by submitted the wrong information to the crditor, the creditor will be equally liable for the error under section 75 of the act and will also be in breach.

So you could successfully iMO challenge the enforceability of the agreement under section 127(3) as the total credit would be incorrect.

However the trick would be to get the dealer to admit he got the priceing wrong.

As regards the HPI this as far as i can see is a restricted use fixed sum agreement not a hire purchase agreement so as you say there is no reason why this record should be on your account

 

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

THIS IS A SIMALAR QUESTION TO WHAT I WAS ASKING YESTERDAY,IF THE CONTRACT WAS RE ASSIGNED to another company and more charges were entered the do you not have a right for re negotiation of the contract and also if this is not the case when do you lose the rights to negotiation of a contract ?

just a puzzling thought

patrickq1

 

Hi Patrick

I think this is a very good question

When does a varyation of the agreement become a modified agreemnt and at what point is the agreement said to be alterred to such an extent that it bears no resemblance to the one you signed.

It is all very well for creditors to send out notices of variations in order to comply with section 82 of the act but what happens if you don't agree with those variations and can't afford to pay off the ballance of your account and teminate it,in short your stuffed.

I recieved a schedule of changes to a MBNA ageement for a credit card yesterday .

The ammendments to the T and Ca included altering the way the interest was applied and amongst many others a clause saying " If we cannot enforce any paragraph or part of a paragraph under this agreement ,it will not efect any other paragraphs,conditions or the other part of the paragraph or condition in this agreement."

Is this code for if they cannot enforce a default for some reason they will still be able to enforce the data sharing option and how many other sections wil it apply to.

Altogether ther are 12 "variations" like this on the agreement.

Surely their must be some mechanism where these can be challenged otherwise we really are at the creditors mecy.

 

Best regards

Peter

[patrickq1]

i think peter where i asked about the repugnance rule this would then possibly have an effect because the state of repugnance means it is is a contradition,so one statement cannot contradict another ,where they have writen one paragraph does not work they will use another or words to that effect

[Vulture_Bank]

THIS IS A SIMALAR QUESTION TO WHAT I WAS ASKING YESTERDAY,IF THE CONTRACT WAS RE ASSIGNED to another company and more charges were entered the do you not have a right for re negotiation of the contract and also if this is not the case when do you lose the rights to negotiation of a contract ?

just a puzzling thought

patrickq1

 

 

http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-928436-9.pdf

 

nice little link above

[patrickq1]

thanks vulture still reading the last volume you sent lol

[patrickq1]

do you happen to have a copy of section 136

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi all

 

Got another one I can get my head around. Got a reply to a CCA today with the below on. Yet again no T&C and the below.

 

The credit limit says to be agreed.

The interest rate is there.

And the repayments are 19 days after statement.

 

Is this enforcable or

Am I missing anything.

 

Cheers

 

HAK

[Minney]

Hi all:)

I have been talking to 'Hellhasnofury' in the ppi section of the forum and she has advised me to ask one of you experts in this section, if you would kindly have a quick peek at my documents in the 'link below' to see if it should state the 'total credit charge' on them or not? if you wouldn't mind please:) it would be very much appreciated.

 

x-stacey-x1 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

My thread is here also, if needed;)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/ppi/115106-ppi-loan-issues-2.html#post1147389

 

Thank you!! guy's and girls in advance for your help!!

 

Minney.x

Hi Peter,

Sorry to bother you again hun but did you manage to have a look at this for me;) I do appreciate that your a very busy person on this thread;)

 

Thank you!

 

Minney.x

[pcdoc]

HI

 

I would query the cash price quoted on the agreement with the dealer.

 

If the agreement was a debtor creditor supplier agreement as per section 12(b)or ©(ie made by the seller in accordance with apre-existing agreement with the credit company) and if the dealer was in error by submitted the wrong information to the crditor, the creditor will be equally liable for the error under section 75 of the act and will also be in breach.

So you could successfully iMO challenge the enforceability of the agreement under section 127(3) as the total credit would be incorrect.

However the trick would be to get the dealer to admit he got the priceing wrong.

As regards the HPI this as far as i can see is a restricted use fixed sum agreement not a hire purchase agreement so as you say there is no reason why this record should be on your account

 

Best regards

Peter

 

Thanks for that Peter, only problem I have is Dixons went t*ts up and a new company Evens Halshaw took over, so I think the only option I would have is to query it with the finance company GE?

 

Regards

pcdoc

[patrickq1]

the dixon account,aslo i think whoever takes over the account is also liable for product garuantees ,is this correct ?

[Having_A_Knightmare]

Hi Peter

 

Can you look at the agreement on this thread.

Yet again NO T&C

Cheers

 

HAK

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/107900-ro55e30-liverpool-victoria-equidebt.html