2*Bailiff debts - child is autistic - help

[baz4iow]

I/we have 2 separate siezure/possion orders from 2 separate Bailiffs and on the whole they have the same goods apart from a couple of differences.

 

1 is for university fees and

the other (later order) is for council tax.

 

Now my problem is the council tax people are coming to seize our possessions as we were 7 days late with trying to pay them

now they are refusing any money unless its the full amount!!

we desperately need some advice can anyone help????

 

Thanks in advance Baz4iow

[dx100uk]

tell us the full story

the fees cannot be being collected by bailiffs unless they have gone to court and gotten a ccj - so that could be a spoofing dca

 

as for the ctax

have you had an lo and what was its total?

bailffs often add excess fees without the law behind then

 

you should pay the council direct never a bailiff

 

telll us more please

 

dx

[padja]

you dont have to let them in regardless of what they say or you can just hide the stuff (perfectly legal) they cant force entry (they may say they can but they cant) this is a standard threat "we have possession order we are coming to seize your goods unless you pay full amount" Have you asked the council to take charge back? If not ask them and if they refuse then use online banking or online/phone council system to pay the arrears (make sure you get right reference number though). I dont know enough about University Fees to advise. What charges have they put on council tax debt?

As for council tax debts heres a list of threats you will get:

 

We are coming back with locksmith and getting in to remove goods.................they have no authority to do that or legal right

We will attend with police and have you arrested..................again no powers whatsoever to do this

We will get you comitted to prison...............................As above no powers

 

Remember however they can get entry if you a) leave a door open or invite them in b) leave a window open that they can enter through. so no leaving door open or windows and if they turn up either ignore them or speak to them through letterbox. Always remember they can not get into your property unless you invite them in (leaving door open or window is classed as invite). I doubt they will turn up as the chances are the goods they have levied against wont cover the whole debt.

 

I'm not sure if they can levy against goods that have a levy already in fact I'm sure they cant so they can whistle.

[baz4iow]

Hi there

 

Well the full story goes...

 

My partner ( who was the main earner and employed by the council!!) was made redundant last year.

 

As a result we couldn't afford our council tax payments and focused on our mortgage,

univeristy fee bailiffs, food and amenities.

 

we advised council but as we couldn't meet whole payments it went to court and an order was issued.

I think it was at the magistrates as opposed to county but can't be sure of this???!!

 

A few weeks later, despite asking council to have our case back, we ended up with bristow sutor on our doorstep.

the guy, who seemed very pleasant, advsied that if we let him in to make a list he would agree a payment plan.

 

As we were so distressed we did this and agreed to an unrealistic plan as we thought we had no choice!

 

Obviously wit hthe current council tax and evrything else, my partner out of work etc etc , we just couldn't meet this.

 

Last week we were given some money and phoned bristow to pay the agreement arrears off.

 

They refused to take the payment saying it was the whole amount now or nothing.

Told us to borrow it and if we didn't we would lose all the goods on the lsit.

WHich includes my 10 year olds wii , washing machine, dryer, sofas and our car.

 

With a small baby and a disabled household member these are all things we need to get through each day

and I rely on the car for work, school etc etc.

 

We advsied that 2 other High court warrants are on the property with levys etc and we sent copies of paper work etc.

 

We got an unsigned Levy list back from Bristow which outlined the items they had levied

but it had a few added items which weren't on the levy we were originally given, which was a bit suspicious!!!

 

We have been told that we have until this friday to either get ful payment or more paperwork

from both enforcement officers to prove that our debts are still outstanding and that their levies still aplly....

.all of which I have already sent!!! we are absolutely desperate!

 

Council wont take our case back and refused payment too and we cant drum up £1200 with fees from thin air!!

 

!If we pay our council tax debt off direct to the council can the bailiffs still take our goods to cover their fees ,

as surely the courts would not have factored that in with their order would they??

 

Oh it is all very confusing and hugely stressful!

 

We are paying nearly £400 per month in council tax and old council tax and it is really crippling us and we don#'t know what else to do.

 

If they do take our goods will they keep coming back??

 

Any help and advice much appreciated.

 

Thanks

[The Ghost]

As dx said, we need the whole story here. It depends at what stage things are as to what powers they may or may not have.

[dx100uk]

ok this is getting a bit deep and beyond my limited knowledge

 

however.

 

you've mentioned something here that could blow it all out of the water

 

you say you have a small baby and a DISABLED household member

 

this i'm sure will make yout household count as vunerable

 

if this is true

then it should never have gone to court [either debt[

and certain means baills must hand all enforcement back to the originator and stop all action.

 

dx

[brassnecked]

Send proof of your vulnerability to the council and demand they take the case back, as they are breaching the National Association of Enforcement Agencies Guidelines 2002 if they don't.:

Vulnerable situations

 

 

• Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations where there is potential cause for concern. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor iffurther action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.
  
• Enforcement agents must withdraw from domestic premises if the only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18; they can ask when the debtor will be home - if appropriate.
  
• Enforcement agents must withdraw without making enquiries if the only persons present are children who appear to be under the age of 12.
  
• Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services when these are needed, and provide on request information in large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.
  
• Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:
  
  • the elderly;
    
  • people with a disability;
    
  • the seriously ill;
    
  • the recently bereaved;
    
  • single parent families;
    
  • pregnant women;
    
  • unemployed people; and,
    
  • those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.
    

   

 

If the council won't take it back send a Formal complaint to the CEO, Council leader councillor and MP imho,

 

Above all try not to worry you have come to the right place for help.

[ploddertom]

Is it possible you could give a chronological breakdown of the debts/orders you have incl those High Court ones you have mentioned? Can you also list the goods included on each Notice of Seizure you have?

 

PT

[baz4iow]

 

Oh gosh.....does this apply even if they have previously been in the property and levied?

 

One bailiff told me that as my brother is autistic he will bring the police with him so to avoid any violent outbursts????

He never once acknowledged the level of distress which would be caused if he was home alone when the bailiff came in.

 

The Bailiff told us that it doesn't matter whether we are home or not, he can just enter our premises now and take goods because he has been in once !!!Do I write directly to the council requesting this? and do I send proof of his disability with it?

 

The Debts Orders we have on the property are:

1 with marstons which is 2 years old.

They have never actually entered the property but their bailiff advised that automatically everything in the hosue will be levied as it is a high court enforcement which is different and bailiffs dont need to enter the property as their rights under a high court enforcement are much stronger.

This is the oldest.

We have an agreement in place with them which has been stuck to every month.

 

The next one is with HCE in devon and was levied in April 2011.

This has the same items but they are worded differently and not all the items on the list have a brand next to them???

They entered the property to do this list.

This is another high court enforcement order.

 

The final one is with Bristow Sutor which was done in June 2011.

This has brands listed but has a different vehicle on it. the vehicle technically belongs to my disabled brother as he paid for it so that we could run him around and take him places. I am the registered keeper for the insurance but it is officially not my car.

 

Goods listed are: 2 x sofas , 1 sideboard, 1 bookcase, 1 Wii ( which was my daughters xmas pressie from her granny!!) , Washing machine, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, 1 computer , 1 car , pine computer table and old rear projection television! Hope this helps and thanks again

[brassnecked]

Wrong Wrong Wrong, there is no law that says you have to deal with a bailiff, and the bailiff who threatened you with police due to your autistic brother should have left, what is he going to do get your brother distressed so the police arrest him? I think it is definitely FORMAL COMPLAINT time, also if the car is Motability for your brother the bailiff cannot touch it and they know it. and any levy on it would be invalid

[ploddertom]

Marstons

They do indeed have a Form 55 which states they have seized all your goods but to do so they still have to complete a valid levy. If they have never been in your home and it is a residential property they have no right of forced entry. Did you know about the original CCJ for this? What other paperwork were you given? Hceo fees are challengeable even at this stage.

 

HCE Group

Same applies as for Marstons. If they are claiming any goods that Marstons have seized then this will make the levy invalid.

 

Bristow & Sutor

They come down the bottom of the pecking order.

 

Each of these should have known that as you have an autistic family member they should have backed off anyway - they have signed up to abide by the National Standards for Enforcement Agents http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part10

 

PT

[ploddertom]

Goods listed are: 2 x sofas - if these were to be removed would you have enough seating left to seat each member of the household + are they modern and do they still have their labels on them, 1 sideboard - how old, what type of wood, 1 bookcase - as sideboard, 1 Wii ( which was my daughters xmas pressie from her granny!!) - exempt from seizure, Washing machine - exempt from seizure, dryer - how old, is it top of range, dishwasher - as dryer, microwave - as dryer, 1 computer - as dryer , 1 car - if not owned by you then they cannot seize this, how is Road Fund Licence paid for , pine computer table - no value - and old rear projection television - no value - ! Hope this helps and thanks again

 

PT

[dx100uk]

well done guys

 

sorry i had to pop out

 

dx

[baz4iow]

Thanks everyone.OK most of the items are pine and are old.

Nothing is top of the range and the sofas have no labels on them at all.

If the sofas go we wont have anywhere to sit...well except on our beds providing they dont take those as well!!

 

The car my brother bought privately out of his savings so the road tax etc does not fall under the mobility scheme.

 

I am a bit confused as to what I do next and where to go from here.

It would seem Marstons levy has little weight as they have never been in the propery.

 

HCE levy is valid but there are some items missing from the Levy compared to Bristows on

- including the car.

 

Does anyone know , as I have let them in can they just break in from here on?

 

Also the Lvey we have got and notice of seizure etc hasn't been signed by anyone in the house, does this make it still valid?

 

Am sooooo confused!!

 

If I pay the council direct via the website can the bailiffs still take our belongings for their own fees?

Any further help would be magnificent, thanking you all muchly

[padja]

you dont have to let them in they have no rights to enter regardless of the threats. Go back on the posts and go to council about your disabled brother they should have not gone down this route, sift through this advice slowly. Dont panic at all there is no need to. If they turn up get on this forum quick for advice. Have you spoke to your councillor? if not get on to him first thing, he will act on your behalf even if its to give you a couple of weeks breathing space so we can all help Ploddertom & Brassnecked have given great advice follow it. ohh and they cant take your sofa's its against the law to sell furniture with no labels on them

[ploddertom]

I'm not being disrespectful but in essence the goods they have seized are worthless. One question we have not asked is how much is the Liability Order that B&S are chasing? This should be the figure the Council are using?

 

As for the car

Does your brother get DLA? If so is the Mobility component at the Higher Rate? Does he still have a receipt for the vehicle in his name? If not there is another way to solve this via a Statutory Declaration - would he understand the importance of this - it is a document that can be made up and signed as a truthful statement in front of a solicitor - in his case he would be signing to say he is the legal owner of the vehicle. Does your brother live with you?

 

The fact you have not signed the Levy/Notice of Seizure does not invalidate it, just means there is another Fee they cannot charge. Even paying the Council direct as suggested in earlier posts will not prevent the Bailiff calling and you would have to allow for some Bailiff Fees. In the meantime you need to establish exactly what fees have been charged by B&S. Here is a letter that may help - use and addapt where necessary and send initially by email followed by a copy in the post:

 

"From:

My Name

My Address

 

To:

Acme bailiff Co

bailiff House

 

Ref: Account No: 123456

 

Dear Sir

 

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

 

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were Certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

 

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

 

I require this information within 14 days.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Ripped off customer"

 

PT

[brassnecked]

As an aside, it may be worth claiming DLA for your brother, if he doesn't get it already; and getting support from any healthcare professionals involved with yourselves in his care, Try not to stress you are getting good advice from ploddertom, and this can be sorted

[baz4iow]

Thanks everyone,

My brother lives with us and currently gets the middle rate of DLA, which we are trying to appeal at the moment.

 

How much does a declaration cost with solicitors fees etc?

Does anyone know if there is a chacne we can send it back to court to be able to represent ourselves better or get them to look at it again?

 

I agree that our items are worthless and if sold at auction wouldn't even cover the costs of the bailiffs fees let alone the original debt!!

 

So just to clarify....I send the letter to Bristows and wait for a response.

2) We go to the council and plead the vulnerability side in the hopes that they tke the case back? ...would this apply even though the debt is in my name?

 

thanks again

[ploddertom]

Thanks everyone,

My brother lives with us and currently gets the middle rate of DLA, which we are trying to appeal at the moment. - I was hoping he may have had the higher component as this would have allowed you to at least tax the car for free.

 

How much does a declaration cost with solicitors fees etc? - depends on the solicitor but mostly in the £5/£10 region and would suggest you get 3 copies done.

Does anyone know if there is a chacne we can send it back to court to be able to represent ourselves better or get them to look at it again? - the Court have no further business in this matter.

 

I agree that our items are worthless and if sold at auction wouldn't even cover the costs of the bailiffs fees let alone the original debt!!

 

So just to clarify....I send the letter to Bristows and wait for a response. - yes, they will no doubt come back and tell you the charges are those as prescribed in the Regulations.

2) We go to the council and plead the vulnerability side in the hopes that they tke the case back? - Best done by letter and you will need to include proof of your brother's condition, letter from GP or other medical adviser - a copy should also be sent to the Bailiffs ...would this apply even though the debt is in my name? - yes, as he is a member of your household it renders the whole family as a potentially vulnerable and should be treated as such under the National Standards for Enforcement Agents.

 

thanks again

 

PT

[ploddertom]

When you get this one underway I would also like to try and tackle your HCEO issues as I believe you will have been charged way over the top.

 

PT

[baz4iow]

Thanks so much everyone and especially PT...you are amazing guys! Well wea er taking proof and a letter to the council tomorrow....we only have until friday to get things sorted as the bailiffs will be back to take our goods next week, if not! I am really struggling with this whole matter...not sleepinng or eating and my patience is very thin I hate the worry and the stupid council.....they made me redundant, reduced our income so we couldnt afford our bills, take us to court, send us to the wolves and not even an ounce of care! its awful :'(

[ploddertom]

Have you contacted your local Councillor(s) to get them to help?

 

PT

[baz4iow]

 well went to council today to try and beg them to help us out.

They were completely not interested in us or our paperwork .

 

Told us as the debt is in our name and not my brothers the vulnerability case could not be argued.

Now back to square one and gave actually been physically sick this afternoon!!!

 

I am most worried that they will take the car we use as it means my brother won't get to his appointments ,

I won't be able to go to work, not able to get kids to school.

 

I have no idea where to turn and what to do now as they will be on our doorstep any day now !!!

 

 

[brassnecked]

This is appalling, the council are wrong on this one, as your brother is part of your household and he receives a care component of DLA, HIS Vulnerability renders the WHOLE FAMILY vulnerable under the guidelines. It is time you wrote a Formal Complaint to the Head of Revenues, copied to the CEO of the council, the Council Leader (elected) your local councillor, and MP imho Others will no doubt be along soon to help I'm sure

[dx100uk]

agreed

 

dx