hsbc/DG sols going for a charging order uncles house

[rhino666]

So looking at it a debt collector can ask for money with no agreement in place, just because a bank told them to do it.

[debbbbsy]

At the moment you have to accept the judges outcome

Why ?

 

If the judge clearly disregarded the requirements of the CCA, and granted judgement when the claimant had failed to provide the agreement. Yes, he should have gone to court and defended, this clearly had an impact on the decision. Can he not appeal or atleast make an application to have it set a side, atleast that way he could have his opportunity to defend in person.

 

general assumption was no cca no enforceable debt

That is the case, unfortunately too many judges ignore this legal view, and make a decision based on a moral issue instead, you had the money.....you have come this far do not be afraid to challenge.

 

Phoenix Recoveries vs D Kotecha - Court of Appeal

 

 

Debs

[debbbbsy]

why has a judge ruled against this?

 

I'd like to bet, had you been there and challenged the claimant. He wouldn't have done it.

[rhino666]

I was thinking that.

[debbbbsy]

The sooner you challenge this the better, as far as I can see the judge was WRONG. We have to stand up to judges that disregard the rights of the consumer, and ignore blatant failures by the claimant to comply with official requests.

 

Stay strong.

 

Debs

[nicklea]

I'd like to bet, had you been there and challenged the claimant. He wouldn't have done it.

 

That is the whole point. You must always, always, always actually go to court if you have a court hearing. Otherwise the judge only has the other side to listen to and not yours.

 

I must admit to being still a little confused. Did somebody tell you not to go to court?

[rhino666]

Not turning up ( whatever the reason apart from sudden death or run over ) is not going to help.

If you really are that serious about this it's either law society or Judicial Appointments Commission.

I bet the procedure is far from simple.

[MandM]

This is damn scary.

I'm about to go through the same myself with No cca. What is the point of a law if every judge ignores it.

 

He didn't. The defendant didn't attend court. So it was an easy walk in the park for the other side. Judges are only human too and they need to be guided towards the substance behind your arguments. Not attending will always limit your opportunities to do this, particularly if the other side turn up and 'have their say' so to speak.

 

M

[liquidauctions]

I dont think the judge takes kindly to the no CCA and i think most times people loose. The only thing the creditor has to show is they lent you money and they can show when and where you spent it and thats why they loose. If its another technicality and the creditor withdraws then that is different.

[rhino666]

I dont think the judge takes kindly to the no CCA and i think most times people loose. The only thing the creditor has to show is they lent you money and they can show when and where you spent it and thats why they loose. If its another technicality and the creditor withdraws then that is different.

 

That's a little basic. If creditors hadn't lent money none of us would be here.

[Guest jsa12]

so.

 

Enclosed

Copy of Original Terms and conditions - Midland Bank Dated August 1992

Copy of HSBC "Important Changes to your credit card agreement" dated 1st October 2008

Copy of HSBC Bank Credit Card Agreement Terms

Copy of blank agreement form used by midland bank - however no logo /headed paper - looks like a drafted word doc

Copies of statments from Aug 04- July 2010 - however missings ten statements mainly from 2005 however probably not relevant.

 

a card opened in 1972 pre 74 act,they submit what looks like their earliest archived terms (hsbc stake) 1992 and what may be the infamous pad of 50 sheet cca and you submitted an embarrassed defence and your uncle never turned up at court.

 

the cputr pops to mind here.

[liquidauctions]

That's a little basic. If creditors hadn't lent money none of us would be here.

 

The way I see it is that people need to be realistic, The judge isnt daft he knows if the person is contesting they have ever recieved any money it will be in there defence so not having a CCA is pointless and the cases I have seen on this forum represents that at court. The judge ends up saying providing no prejudice has been commited he will be happy to grant judgement.

[Guest jsa12]

this thread suggests something else,pre waksman the line is somewhat different.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159348

 

if they dont have an agreement over six years' old,how can they have one from thirty nine years ago,lets not forget the waksman ruling that an agreement cannot be simply invented,given the timescale the dg presented version would suggest this to be the case.

unless uncle traveled in a tardis from 1972 to an Hsbc 1994 type signed and then returned to 1972.come on.its laughable to present any document like that as true.

[rhino666]

jsa12. that link is a carbon copy of what I'm going through. Thanks for the link.

[liquidauctions]

this thread suggests something else,pre waksman the line is somewhat different.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159348

 

if they dont have an agreement over six years' old,how can they have one from thirty nine years ago,lets not forget the waksman ruling that an agreement cannot be simply invented,given the timescale the dg presented version would suggest this to be the case.

unless uncle traveled in a tardis from 1972 to an Hsbc 1994 type signed and then returned to 1972.come on.its laughable to present any document like that as true.

 

I know that it seems unreasonable that they do not abide by the CCA when enforcing debt but at the end of the day the judge knows the defendant has made use of the credit and he knows that the claimant is wanting there money back so when he sees all this unenforceble agreement issues all they see is someone trying it on. In my eyes you should present all that to the creditor who may then write off. If it goes to court the claimant gets judgement end of (or a payment plan is set up) If the judge struck out each case with a plausable unenforceable agreement arguement I would think the banks would close down as alot of dealings with lenders do not 100% comply with the CCA.

[rhino666]

I know that it seems unreasonable that they do not abide by the CCA when enforcing debt but at the end of the day the judge knows the defendant has made use of the credit and he knows that the claimant is wanting there money back so when he sees all this unenforceble agreement issues all they see is someone trying it on. In my eyes you should present all that to the creditor who may then write off. If it goes to court the claimant gets judgement end of (or a payment plan is set up) If the judge struck out each case with a plausable unenforceable agreement arguement I would think the banks would close down as a lot of dealings with lenders do not 100% comply with the CCA.

 

I see what you're saying but laws are passed for a reason whether judge likes it or not he's there to supposedly make sure there's no foul play according to current legislation

[Guest jsa12]

this topic is very debatable,it looks as if this has been struck out at northampton,what is unfair the person's situation was not taken into account,a case was heard without his knowledge,a forthwith judgment appears to have been made which potentially has any other creditors' not given equal preference,the arguments against a charging order have not been fully accessed if that becomes the case.its unfair to give one creditor a preference over another regardless and to demand payment forthwith is not fair as it is not unreasonable with hindsight the persons ability to pay an amount.

 

any issues regarding appear to be just swept under the carpet as quickly as possible in the interests of,no questions asked.,thats before the arguments regarding the waksman ruling and an agreement that simply cannot be invented.

 

all this further undermines the courts in seen to be acting fair and appear one sided,a banking system that is (or was) out of control,and raises more questions regarding unfair trading practices and apparent "shoddy" housekeeping that is being maneuvered around constantly. the oft's apparent reluctance to deal with the banks practices with any real determination also comes under the spotlight here too.

[Guest jsa12]

i think the best advice for those confronted by dodgy agreements/t&c's is to sent the template forgery letter from here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?287717-cca-forgery-template-letter-cca-not-recognised-or-incorrect-t-amp-cs

 

and follow and refer to priorityone's excellent reference to the cputr,it applies to all these scenarios that appear to be hsbc's main tactic.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?291468-Fighting-back-with-CPUTR-2008....

[Docman]

I disagree js with your idea of a 'forgery'.

 

Whilst in everyday parlance, many people may regard the 'recontructed' documents sent by banks as forgeries, they are not in the legal sense. The documents do come from the party [the bank] who claims to have issued the original document in the first place. The document is what it purports to be namely a set of terms & conditions for a credit agreement.

 

Whether the document is a copy of the original terms & conditions or something else is for the defendant to prove - a very hard test unless the defendant has a set of the original documentation. If it can be shown that the 'reconstructed' document cannot have existed, the defendant should point out that the claimant has misled the court in its evidence. Claiming beforehand that the document is a forgery is likely to annoy the creditor even more, tempting as that may be it doesn't get a defendant very far in resolving the issue or winning the case.

 

The arguments about the CPUTR are also very vailid but not that relevant in this case. The defendant lost IMO because he didn't turn up at court but just relied on his original written defence.

[masjntt]

Hi, I am in the process of helping a relative who is struggling with the repayments on his credit card. He is 59 & a home owner but in receipt of JSA. He has not yet missed a repayment and I am confused at which is the recommended way forward.

 

Do we

 

1) Write to creditior explaining circumstances and request that they accept a really low sum as means of repayment & freeze interest - enlosing a budget sheet & token payment

 

OR

 

2) request a copy of CCA before we take any action?

 

Any advice appreciated, thank you - We want to approach this in the "correct" manner in case of future court action.

 

Thanks x

[silverfox1961]

Hi,

In general, I would use option 1.

 

this is by far the best way to get the attention needed. I happen to think that doing a CCA request gets the creditors backs up and they get beliggerent to the debtor.

 

I would use the letters in the library but adapt them to the particular circumstances

[cerberusalert]

Does he have PPI on his credit card and has he paid charges on it over the years?

[sweetjane]

Is he struggling to pay priority debts like utilities, council tax, does he still have mortgage? These must all be paid before credit cards. If he cannot pay those go to CAB or ring national debtline (make sure you get the name right- many debt management companies deliberately have very similar names). These 2 don't charge for their advice and will deal with companies on your behalf. They also help put together a common financial statement which is accepted by all creditors and saves you filling individual bank forms. Good luck, don't let him be bullied into paying more than he cam afford and ask the credit card co to cease charging interest otherwise he will never pay off the debt.

[Pyyp23]

I have found with personal experience, that if you havn't actually fallen behind with any payments yet, CAB and your creditors don't really want to know. I wasted several hours with CAB before they told me that until you actually fall behind on payments your creditors have no reason to accept any payment deals because you are paying them.

I spoke to some of the companies direct and they didn't care either as they were still recieving their minimum monthly payments.

 

I'm not telling you to stop paying, just giving my experience.

[sequenci]

Hello there.

 

Welcome to CAG.

 

Please take time to have a read through my 'ten steps' blog, this outlines the options and processes open to your relative to help them with their debts. I'll disagree with Pypp as the CAB *should* help anyone regardless of the position they are in although it should be noted that due to recent funding cuts there are huge backlogs with people wanting to see a debt specialist. Some areas are no longer taking people on. Sweetjane's suggestion of contacting one of the telephone debt charities could be a good idea. National Debtline or The Consumer Credit Counselling Service are both free and highy recommended. There is a wealth of knowledge right here on CAG too. We're always happy to help out.