Help! Husband's 18year old mortgage debt landed on our doorstep today. I'm terrified.

[Dougal16T]

Afternoon all,

At the risk of repeating myself, I ask just ONE question:

 

Where is the evidence which the Halifax will have to rely on if they wish to proceed with any case in this matter??

 

I believe that the answer is : There is no evidence which they can produce in Court to show that your OH contacted them.

 

If you wish you could simply ask the Halifax: 'Where is your written evidence on which you base your correspondence and any claim you may contemplate issuing ?

 

At least this should make them either:

 

1. Provide the written evidence

 

and/or

 

2. Tell you they are unable to produce any written evidence

 

If 2. is the answer I believe you would have an extremely good case for Harassment and a potential claim for Damages.

 

It breaks my heart to think that you are suffering as a result of the inefficiency of the Halifax - it is about time your distress and upset were bought to an end. If there is no evidence - they have no case.

 

Best wishes

 

Dougal

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I'm sorry to say that many judges faced with a barrister representing

a major bank or other financial institution are to ready to accept statements

such as ''it's the banks normal practice to........ ... so x would have been done''

and '' there is a note on the banks system to the effect of xxxxxxxx so it

must have ocurred''.

A litigant in person has little if any chance or being able to challenge the submissions

of the barrister when the judge just says ''thank you Mr.xxxxxxxx that clears up that

point'' and carries on regardless of anything the defendant has to say.

(end rant bad day in court).

[perplexedofdorset]

Hi there Brig, nice to hear you're still around and listening in.

 

Bad day in court??? are you a solicitor/lawyer type person or in the dock???

No matter, I like your rant and tend to agree with you..... being a glass half empty person myself...

 

Dear Dougal,

you are not repeating yourself...or rather if you are then I probably need it repeating until it sinks in...

 

the evidence so far as I can see are the H 's case notes which read along the lines of......

 

1.....'Mr rang, said would pay £50 month' or 'Mrs said Mr was away ' etc

2.....The alleged payments over years...which years vary according to which list you read

3.....3 emails and one letter (which as these were sent between 2002 and 2004 would be outside the time limit anyway)

 

 

 

Dear Uncle B,

You're quite right i had a letter on the 18th April from an Operations Support Administrator, quoting a different reference number than the woman uses (interesting? or not?)

So this new complaint letter to the FOS would be complaining about this woman's handling (or not as she doesn't seem to be reading anything we are sending her) of our complaint against the H???? or about the H?

 

Going to the FOS was never going to be a one stop magical solution to make the H go away.

 

Aaaaawww. I really had hoped it would be!

 

So why did I get another letter, with another reference number from the FOS: you don't think my mails being interecepted by SS's or the H and they are just writing all this s*** back to me to see if I will break and give up????

whilst the real FOS (aside from the plasticine FOS) take their usual long winded time to look through the complaint...

It has all seemed a bit speedy, dont you think???

 

:spy::spy:

[perplexedofdorset]

Regards the two letters from differing FOS peeps....

 

I initially sent the complaint to the FOS on the 13th January

which was acknowledged on the 18th Jan. with a reference number

and then i received another acknowledgement on the 22nd Feb.

we first heard from the woman on the 21st March

who, on the 5th April decided she was unable to uphold our complaint

on the 18th April we were thanked for our correspondence, with a different reference number, and warned it might be 4 weeks before we heard anything

and today we received this last letter from the woman stating that she has not changed her opinion.

 

I wonder what would happen if I called up and quoted the other reference number???????

and whether we have another complaint in a parallel universe that is upheld....and oh, Saturdays lottery numbers are 5, 12.... hahahahha

Sorry getting carried away.

[unclebulgaria67]

Complaint would be to the FOS, about the responses you have had from the lady adjudicator which would appear to be a bit condescending, e.g ' does not think we will be able to meet this deadline'

 

When you write to the FOS, quote the reference of the operations support administrator and advise that you are not happy with the way your complaint had been handled so far and some of the sarcastic comments in the letters. Advise that you would like the case to be escalated to the ombudsman.

 

Wait until next week before sending the letter, just in case you hear from H or DLC.

 

As I said earlier, I can't rule out the possibility that the FOS will believe what H have told them and reject the complaint. But while it is with the FOS, it is buying you some time. Just think, had you not gone to the FOS, you would have had ever more threatening letters from Shoosmiths and I am sure that this may have caused more stress. At the end of the day, if the FOS does reject the complaint, no doubt Halifax will start to write asking for settlement proposals. At that point, taking into account what Brig has said about courts, you might decide to see how you could make a one-off full and final settlement offer. As I have said before, a relative of mine had a £30k debt written off by another mortgage company for about £3k. Therefore unless your OH is taken to court and H win, he will not be made to pay £26k. H have already said, they are open to receiving offers. If there is no way, you could offer an F&F offer, he could pay say £20 a month, if that is all he could afford.

 

But don't think about this, at this stage. Just put it to the back of your mind, that at some point, if it starts to look like a court might accept what H have in evidence, that your OH might have to consider his option. e.g an F&F or monthly payment offer based on affordability.

[perplexedofdorset]

based on affordability.

 

and that's when they butt in to your life, decide how much he can afford to pay and take it out of his wages, isn't it???

he's only just finished paying the child support to his ghastly ex...did you know they take it til the kid is 19??????

 

buying you time.....ever more threatening letters

yes I had thought of that Uncle B , thank you

 

Good point about waiting for next week, I will do that...I will enjoy writing about her condescending remarks and that fact she just seems to be taking it all at face value, not even mentioning the discrepancies in the payments which surely undermines their reliability...Oh! I forgot they're irrelevant now...

Are you sure I've not been dealing with someone from the H or SS's????

 

so you reckon they accept 10% or did your friend have to argue you hard for them to accept that?

 

Ok, enough now, Simpson's time.......

oh crap! its a rehash of a rehash...grrrrrr:x

[unclebulgaria67]

As someone has commented before. Some of the people who work at the FOS, have worked for banks and other financial services companies, so may not be totally independent in their views.

 

Re the 10% offer, I seem to remember that they offered that amount, as that was all they could afford. It was accepted fairly quickly, as they preferred to receive that amount, rather than receive very small token payments over a long period.

[Dougal16T]

Good evening

 

My intention is to get the Claim (IF issued) struck out before it gets to Court.

 

They will have to produce the evidence (IF it exists) prior to the hearing during a process known as Disclosure. This means that you will get to see what evidence they intend to rely on, at that point you can decide if you need Legal representation.

 

Don't even consider trying to 'settle' what may well be a spurious claim!

 

Regards to all,

 

Dougal

Edited May 3, 2012 by caro
Removing credentials

[Dougal16T]

Caro,

 

Trying to send you a PM re your message and your inbox is full.

 

Regards

 

Dougal

[perplexedofdorset]

at that point you can decide if you need Legal representation.

 

but by then your committed to going to court aren't you, which if it all goes horribly wrong.....

[brokebutnotbeatn]

"until the kid is 19"...Sorry. his kid and kids are expensive!

[unclebulgaria67]

"until the kid is 19"...Sorry. his kid and kids are expensive!

 

19 is not that bad actually. There was a court case the other day and it was ruled for some reason that the father had to pay maintenance to about 22 or 23. I think the father was pretty well off and the kids were going to university, so he had to pay them for a bit longer.

 

Perplexed. No point looking too far into the future. Wait to see what information comes from H and DLC. With civil court cases, judges will accept evidence which they will decide on the balance of probability. So if all the information that H provides, is sufficient for a judge to decide that the payments and acknowledges came from your OH, then that would not be a good outcome.

 

This is why if it ever comes to H deciding that they will issue court proceedings, you should then get proper legal advice looking at all the paperwork. Hopefully it will never come to that, which is why you should use the time now, while the FOS are looking into this, to dig away, to find out what information H and DLC have. If H and DLC don't know who the payments have come from and the correspondence 2002-2004, cannot be verified to have come from your OH, then I would think it would be difficult for H to proceed. I have explained before about why it would be difficult. e.g no proof of payer, only file notes.

Edited May 4, 2012 by unclebulgaria67
grammar

[perplexedofdorset]

correspondence 2002-2004, cannot be verified

 

but surely those 3 emails and one letter would be useless to them as it falls outside of the 6 year remit?

[unclebulgaria67]

correspondence 2002-2004, cannot be verified

 

but surely those 3 emails and one letter would be useless to them as it falls outside of the 6 year remit?

 

No. What H would do, is provide a statement about the contacts made within 6 years of the debt becoming due. This could be file notes, stating that letter xyz123 was sent on 1/3/97 to xxx address, file notes about phone calls, payments made on various dates. The emails and letter, if they appear to come from your OH ( have quoted references of H mortgage or DLC file ref), will show a continuation of contacts being made. If a judge is satisfied on the balance of probability, then they could view the debt not being statute barred until sometime in 2016.

 

What you were trying to do, is cast doubt about the contacts and payments within 6 years. If there is enough doubt about this as there is not enough proof, then it could be viewed that the debt became statute barred 12 years after the debt becoming due. i.e 12 years after the property was sold. This is why you were digging away at the H and now with DLC, to get as much evidence as you can, to case doubt on what H are saying. Every letter that comes back with H saying that they don't know where the payments came from, is another bit of evidence to help you. The differences in the payment details provided and the 13 month gap in payments is again helpful to you. This is the good thing about the FOS process, as it is giving you time to dig for information and stopping Shoosmiths/H from harassing your OH about paying.

[perplexedofdorset]

Excellent uncle B, thank you.

 

Must go to work now...yes, the extended sick leaves is over and I have to work for my few shekels now!

[Dougal16T]

at that point you can decide if you need Legal representation.

 

but by then your committed to going to court aren't you, which if it all goes horribly wrong.....

No you are not committed to going to Court at all. You just need GOOD legal advice if you get to the stage of proceedings being issued. I agree 100% with Unclebulgaria and his advice is sound.

If you get Proof from the Halifax which shows your OH contacted them it must be written evidence of phone conversations showing date and time received and how transcript is produced with a certificate from the Data processing person at Halifax showing it to be the truth.

[perplexedofdorset]

If you get Proof from the halifax which shows your OH contacted them ......

 

just a load of case notes as far as the evidence I've been given shows....stuff like....

 

18/09/95 name check came up with...(address)...ex d in the name of...(ex wife)...exd sent letter to add resent d133...

and the initials of the data inputer

[perplexedofdorset]

Hello everyone, Uncle B, the Brig and Dougal in particular

I hope you had a nice bank holiday weekend, if that is not an oxymoron, knowing the traditional bank holiday weather in the UK!!!!

 

Here is a draft back to the lady at the FOS, you will notice the weak and wibbbly way I have complained about her dealing with our case...I need help with that, after all I am English!

 

Further to your letter of the 1st May, I am naturally disappointed that your opinion as to whether the Halifax are within the 6 year time limit to pursue this debt remains unchanged , and wish the case to be referred on to the Ombudsman as you suggest at the end of your letter.

 

I note you now state that the proof of contact made within 6 years now lies within the Halifax’s case notes and not the alleged payments toward the debt; but their system memos of phone calls and letters sent to various addresses do not and I suggest cannot be satisfactorily verified as having come from or being received by Mr ***.

 

I also note you chose not to mention the document I provided with my last letter, which show alleged payments to the DLC, in which I drew your attention to discrepancies between the DLC’s records of dates, in particular a 13 month difference between the first payment received, amounts received and even the total amount paid and the Halifax’s records of alleged payments. This must give clear concern over the accuracy of record keeping at both the DLC and Halifax.

 

When you couple those discrepancies with the Halifax’s free admission that they are unable to provide evidence as to the source of the payments and other inaccuracies in their case notes; which by the way, do not constitute the required written evidence of phone conversations, showing date and time received, how the transcript was produced with a certificate from the data processing person at Halifax showing it to be the truth; we find their allegations of contact with Mr*** within the 6 years to be highly spurious.

We are continuing to make enquiries with Halifax and are waiting for the DLC to return a subject access request as we do not believe that all information has been provided.

 

Lastly we wish to make an official complaint about your attitude toward our case. We find your tone to be perfunctory, dismissive and condescending; in particular your belief that you ' do not think we will be able to meet the deadline(s)’ that you set us for responding to your letters, which we have despite both these time spans including bank holiday weekends.

 

We therefore wish to continue with this complaint and wish for our file to be passed to the Ombudsman as we maintain that the Halifax has no grounds to pursue this alleged debt.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Any suggestions??????????

Edited May 8, 2012 by perplexedofdorset

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes good letter. I can't think of anything to add. I think you have said it all. You may wish to remove your OH's name on your post above.

[perplexedofdorset]

ooopppsss!

 

Thanks Uncle B....I myself have the attention span of a goldfish, hopefully others on here have tooand memories wlll be erased! hahhahhah

 

Everything in there? nothing to add? what about my complaint of her handling of our case?

[unclebulgaria67]

Yes that is all ok. I thought you were sending the letter to the operation support administration people and not the lady adjudicator.

 

Not that it matters, as she will have to pass the letter and your complaint onto the ombudsman.

[perplexedofdorset]

should i do a copy to the operation support officer or send it just to them...nah, cos as the time is short (deadline 14th May) she might profess that she didnt receive it in time

 

Please let me know by end of day as I will post it first thing tomorrow...

Edited May 8, 2012 by perplexedofdorset

[unclebulgaria67]

Just send one letter to whoever. I would hope that one person at the FOS would communicate with others and put notes on their system.

 

The deadline nonsense that the person at the FOS keeps mentioning, is not something official ( I have not read of this), which if you breach, they throw put the complaint. I just think that it is a diary date, so they can see whether the complaint is progressing or not.

[perplexedofdorset]

Ok Uncle B, when she gives the deadlines she writes....

 

'if I have not heard from you by (whenever) we will assume you have decided not to pursue the complaint further'.

 

I will print and post tomorrow...any other suggestions..let me know by first thing tomorrow.

 

Thank you,

[caro]

Caro,

 

Trying to send you a PM re your message and your inbox is full.

 

Regards

 

Dougal

 

Sorry Dougal. Only just spotted this. There is now space in my inbox.