Help! Husband's 18year old mortgage debt landed on our doorstep today. I'm terrified.

[perplexedofdorset]

Gee thanks Dougal, unfortunately the deed is done..

 

after the reference number at the top of both letters i wrote...

 

I do not acknowledge this alleged debt.

 

in bold as a sort of header...that's going to have to do, as I needed them posted asap, given the 19th April deadline

 

Will the letters as I wrote them, without your amendments, do??????????

[Dougal16T]

Hi Perplexed, and everyone,

 

They are fine - even without my amendments!!!

 

I just want you to have the best possible chance of putting this whole business behind you.

 

I suggest you (tactfully) ask your OH if he has a copy of the original agreement anywhere.....

 

What has been his reaction to all of this so far?

 

Just me being nosey, and you are welcome to PM me if you wish.

 

With CAG behind you you will succeed, but it may take some time!

Best wishes all,

 

Dougal

[perplexedofdorset]

He wont have...

He came (home)to me in 2004 with almost nothing bar a small case of clothes and a bmx bike...not a lot to show for 40 odd years of life..

so i can quite confidently predict that old mortgage agreements will not be in the inventory.

but can you tell me why would it be important????????

 

He says he's grateful for me handling all this, but I think he just blanks it out, and gets on with his highly stressful, time consuming job...and leaves me to get on with it, after all, even when not on sick leave I have the time (part time worker) but I still find it very stressful.

 

I wonder if, when the H said they could not provides us with the information about the source of the payments, they meant because of data protection, or because they do not have that information. I am hoping for the latter....they did not mention the DPA.

 

Thanks for your help and we shall see what we shall see

 

With CAG behind you you will succeed, but it may take some time!

 

this banner I like very much

[perplexedofdorset]

HELP!!!!!!!

 

The FOS have got back to me ...ALREADY, does this girl have nothing else to do???

 

and SHE IS NOT LISTENING TO US!

 

She enclosed the evidence that she had forgotten in the last letter and, as I expected, it is the same evidence...SOME OF IT...that we already have...

ie The DLC payment list and copy of the H's (I assume) phone notes....

 

She says the evidence she has seen indicates that (my OH) made payments and was contacted by H and (that my OH) contacted the bank himself regarding the shortfall. the evidence indicates contact was made as early as 1995 and therefore the limitation period cannot apply.

 

she further says because of this she cannot uphold my complaint and her reccommendations remain unchanged.

 

she also says that if we disagree, please write and tell her by 1st May, setting out reasons and including any evidence that we have not already provided that we think is important to our case. She would be grateful if we could let her know now if we plan to reply...and i think this is supremely arrogant of her....but does not think we will be able to meet this deadline.

 

Now as far as I can see she has not taken in one iota of what we have said....that indeed, payments seem to have been made, but there is no proof of from where they originated...

(By the way we have not yet heard from the H as regards the evidence of origin required)

 

The phone notes, which she helpfully highlighted, are just that a set of computerised notes...where is the proof that it was my OH that called them?

There are inconsistencies in these such as my OH's ex wife's name etc...also notes of payments apparently received that are not shown on any logs...maybe direct to the H, but surely these should have goner towards the shortfall...i don't think I have seen any note of payments before the DLC list, which starts at 31/12/96.

 

But what she doesn't mention, which i pointed out in our last letter to her...is the OTHER list of alleged payments with the different dates and amounts paid.....more inconsistencies.....

 

HELP guys, what am I going to do...........

Edited April 19, 2012 by perplexedofdorset

[unclebulgaria67]

Wait to see if Halifax respond by say Monday morning and if no response, fire off another letter to Halifax, with a copy to the FOS, advising that you will be continuing with your complaint.

 

Another thing you could do, is submit a subject access request to DLC, for all information that they hold, in regard to the time that they were collecting the Halifax debt. You never know, if it reveals different information, it might be very useful.

[perplexedofdorset]

ah Uncle B...

are you God? you seem to always be around when I need you....

 

Subject access report ?????? to DLC ????? £10 !!!!!??????

I must tell you at the moment we have £15 'til the end of the month, with which to eat,live,drive etc (cock up on the financial front)

 

I must be Proactive....not just sit on my fat a*** and play scrabble...so iM going to compile an excel sheet listing the dates and payment amounts of the two lists to further highlight the discrepancies..

 

what about these payments that the H allege my OH made...why is there no record of them.

also there was much made of standing order payments ...surely these would have origins which the H have and could pass on as proof to us??????

[Dougal16T]

Good morning,

I have been reading this case again and I note the following from your post:

 

"In November2001 they did a CAIS check, but found nothing of interest and the case was closed on 14/6/2001

 

The first thing we/I heard about this debt was in July 2011......." This is actually over 10 years from the date of closure of the case!

 

OK: A question and I hope some useful advice:

 

1. Firstly: Who actually decided that "the case was closed on 14/6/2011" ?

 

It is not right that a debt may be pursued by anyone after the expiry of 6 years. However : The Limitations Act of 1980 gives creditors a maximum amount of time to start legal proceedings after the last payment or written acknowledgement (note or letter) from the debtor. For most debts, this is six years, or 12 years for mortgages.

 

If you have not paid anything towards a debt or 'acknowledged the debt' in writing (for example, by writing to the creditor about the debt) for more than six years, you should get advice from a specialist before you speak to the creditor about an arrangement to pay what you owe.

 

From 31 st October 2004 the Financial Services Authority (FSA) has taken over the regulation of mortgage lending and problems with existing mortgages. The Mortgage Conduct of Business Rules say that if the lender decides to recover the mortgage shortfall debt they must make sure you are told about this. This must happen within six years of the date of sale.

 

The Halifax (who are part of Lloyds bank are by association with that bank, and being a part of the core business of that Bank CML members.)

 

Council of Mortgage Lenders Policy

 

Mortgage lenders who are members of the Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) have not yet changed their policy on recovering mortgage shortfalls in light of The Court of Appeal decisions. You can still argue the policy to your lender as a point of good practice.

 

BUT:

 

From 11 February 2000 the policy is as follows:

 

"The CML says anyone whose property was repossessed and sold and who has not been contacted by their lender within six years from the date of the sale will not be asked to pay the shortfall.

 

If your lender has already contacted you before 11 February 2000 then it appears they will continue to try and recover the shortfall even if your house was repossessed and sold more than six years ago."

 

I note that you were told that the case was closed on 14th June 2001. I suggest that there is nothing that can be done by the Halifax or anyone else for that matter. If anyone thinks differently, please let all of us know!!

 

See "sample letter M4" if you want to write to your lender asking them not to pursue the debt under the Council of Mortgage Lenders policy.

 

This is 'Sample letter 4':

SAMPLE LETTER M 1

Breakdown of Balance owed

 

 

Your name:

Your address:

 

Name of Creditor:

Address:

 

Date: ...../...../.........

 

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Dear Sir/Madam

Your reference - Account No.

 

Thank you for your letter/telephone call.

 

I do not acknowledge any debt or claim. to your company or anyone else.

Please supply me with a full breakdown of any balance claimed under the above account, together with a full and detailed breakdown as to how that figure was arrived at.

 

In order for me to deal with the matters you raised, I should be grateful if you would supply me with answers to the following points;

 

When did the arrears begin?

 

when was the last payment made on the account?

 

when was any Possession Order given?

 

when was the house sold?

 

what valuations were made on the property before the sale?

 

what costs were involved in maintaining the property during the period between the repossession and the sale?

 

how was the house marketed and sold and at what price?

 

what costs were involved in selling the property?

 

has a claim been made against the indemnity insurance and how much was recovered?

 

how has interest been calculated from the start of the arrears?

 

Please supply me with a full breakdown of the balance claimed under the above account.

 

I look forward to receiving your reply as soon as possible.

 

Yours faithfully

 

(Your signature)

 

IMPORTANT WARNING NOTE : DO NOT USE YOUR NORMAL SIGNATURE, A 'SQUIGGLE' WILL BE ENOUGH AND JUST TYPE UNDERNEATH YOUR NAME.

 

IT IS NOT UNKNOWN FOR YOUR SIGNATURE TO BE COPIED AND 'TRANSPLANTED' ONTO OTHER DOCUMENTS.

 

I apologise for this lengthy post, but I am determined to put 'this matter where it belongs'....

 

Best wishes to all

 

Dougal

[perplexedofdorset]

HI Dougal,

 

"In November2001 they did a CAIS check, but found nothing of interest and the case was closed on 14/6/2001"

 

In the l case notes from (I assume) the Halifax ? the last few entries read

 

19/01/2001 in view of what D was paying this might be worth a cAIS check RGB

 

6/02/2001 all old info on CAIS small cred cards no mortgage or large loans. D not on V/R but we do know he moved from this add and back agn. mrs on VR as he was paying 3MR then review.

 

10/05/2001 LSR sent for review RGB

 

14/06/2001 Close 474 RGB

...Now im getting a bit good at understanding some of this jargon, having sat down on my fat a**** and read through these things,

so ...

 

D = Debtor

V/R = Voting register

MRS = ex-wife from hell (Hehehe)

'

but I don't understand 3MR or LSR

 

I do understand the word CLOSE tho!!!

 

As to the sample letter above I have sent very similiar in October last year...t you can find it at post 430.

 

THe FOS woman says that because they apparently contacted my OH, who then apparently rang them on 19th September 95 there is no case.

 

Our point is...Where is the proof that it was my OH that contacted them, and that the payments made came from him.

 

I have requested 3 times the sort code account numbers bank details methods of payment etc that would prove this and am still waiting

 

The lady from the FOS (not so nice as the man from DEl Monte) seems to take the pieces of paper at face value...

but anyone can write anything at any time cant they?

 

I've done the excel sheet and its interesting, different amounts, dates, totals...what to believe?????

[perplexedofdorset]

Hello

 

So what should I do?

write back to the FOS?

with what new evidence? the point is the LACK of evidence surely....

 

I've read through the case notes and the last alleged payment was made by Delta card...so where are those details,

also there were myriad standing orders and several cheque payments...

these are the details i was asking for...surely they would prove the origin of the payments, #

yet, so far, I have been told they are unable to provide these details.

[Dougal16T]

Good afternoon,

 

I suggest that you send exactly the letter in my post, and see what happens. I would however send it NOW to both the Halifax and DLC. I would also copy it to the FOS.

 

This ought to bring any information they have out of the woodwork.

 

Then I would make a cup of tea and wonder what will happen the rest of my life. One thing is certain, you can virtually forget having to pay either the Halifax or DLC another penny.

 

Best wishes

 

Dougal

[perplexedofdorset]

you can virtually forget having to pay either the Halifax or DLC another penny.???????

 

the letter in your post??? Sample letter 4?? i already did that See post number 430 sent 25th October 2011

and they responded with all the details except the bank details for payments.

They ultimately responded to that query in February this year by writing....

 

Unfortunately I am unable to provide you with the sort code, account number from where the payments originated from

 

sorry to be dense but why ask for things i have already asked for and already, in the most part, received?

[unclebulgaria67]

3MR and LSR ?

 

Perplexed, what I would suggest that you do, is just relax for the minute. If by Monday, Halifax have not responded with the payment details. Just send a reminder and at the same time ask them to clarify the file information regarding the CAIS check. Halifax should explain any abbreviations contained in the SAR info they sent. When you send the letter to Halifax, also send a copy to the FOS, advising that you will be continuing your complaint.

 

Don't worry too much about the lady from the FOS. She probably has a shed load of cases on the go and just wants to get rid of any she can. So she will set a deadline, hoping that you don't come back.

 

When you have the money available, send DLC an SAR for the details held on their files. You never know, it might reveal information that is extremely helpful.

[Dougal16T]

Dear Perplexed,

 

If I agitated you then I am sorry. It is not my way.

 

I am merely trying to give you some strength from knowing that you cannot be defeated in this case.

 

When you are ready I will be pleased to help.

 

Best wishes

 

Dougal

[sequenci]

Perplexed. With a limitations argument if the credit cannot prove how/when/by whom the payments were made then they shouldn't be able to rely on them. I would argue that this would be exactly the same when raising a CML argument.

[perplexedofdorset]

Dougal,

you didn't agitate me I'm just not so bright, sorry.

knowing that you cannot be defeated in this case.

on this you are much much more confident than I...

 

The CML says anyone whose property was repossessed and sold and who has not been contacted by their lender within six years from the date of the sale will not be asked to pay the shortfall.

according to the H, and the FOS, he was contacted in 95, admitted the debt and paid toward it until 2000.

They also say that my OH emailed 3 times and wrote a letter offering to pay £1k in full and final between then and 2004.

Emails are emails and the letter was short and sharp with, as far as I can see, no signature.

[perplexedofdorset]

Uncle B, sound advice which I will heed. Monday then!

 

clarify the file information regarding the CAIS check.

do you mean..he closed bit??? ???

[unclebulgaria67]

Uncle B, sound advice which I will heed. Monday then!

 

clarify the file information regarding the CAIS check.

do you mean..he closed bit??? ???

 

The CAIS check is just to see whether they had any chance of tracing your husband. They closed it, because they were not getting any information that helped them trace the address he was at, at the time they were trying to locate him.

 

Have a look through all the various system notes on the SAR info received and if you want any abbreviations explained, ask the relevant company i.e Halifax or DLC.

[perplexedofdorset]

Ah ok, I see, so not closed as in case closed! sigh!

yes I will do that Uncle B

[perplexedofdorset]

If you have not paid anything towards a debt or 'acknowledged the debt' in writing (for example, by writing to the creditor about the debt) for more than six years, you should get advice from a specialist before you speak to the creditor about an arrangement to pay what you owe.

 

That's definitely our case, last alleged payment received by the h being in 2000 and alleged last written contact in June 2004.....next contact from SS's in July 2011

 

Do you mean a solicitor Dougal?

or something cheaper???

 

Does anyone have any views on the two differing payments lists, should I make anything of that in our case????

Edited April 19, 2012 by perplexedofdorset

[unclebulgaria67]

Thought you were putting the papers down and relaxing until Monday ? Countdown must be on soon !

 

If it comes to it, regarding any legal costs, then check with any legal expenses that you have with Home Insurance. You might be out of time to make a claim, but you could enquire. Also Community legal helpline may be able to advise re legal aid. Or there may be Pro Bono solicitors out there. Always worth looking into.

 

Not sure about the different payment lists. May be worth asking the Halifax for an explanation, when you next need to write to them.

[perplexedofdorset]

home insurance??? isnt that for when the house burns down or a truck comes through your front door?

 

just trying to get the heads up for monday..i hate writing these letters..

[sequenci]

Another important point to consider:

 

Under the Limitation Act an acknowledgement would only bind the person that made the acknowledgement - so an e-mail would only bind him. A payment binds all parties within the contract regardless of who made it.

 

I wonder if the same principles would apply with the CML. I'll look into it.

[unclebulgaria67]

On some Home Insurances, there will be a legal expenses optional cover. You may or may not have opted for this. It would depend on the terms and conditions of the cover, as to whether they can help or not. But if you have the cover, then you might as well enquire,

 

In regard to any letters, just keep them simple. Plain English. What I tend to do, when I construct a letter, is to just write down a list of the points or questions that I want to include. I then just construct language around the points or questions.

[unclebulgaria67]

Another important point to consider:

 

Under the Limitation Act an acknowledgement would only bind the person that made the acknowledgement - so an e-mail would only bind him. A payment binds all parties within the contract regardless of who made it.

 

I wonder if the same principles would apply with the CML. I'll look into it.

 

Might not be relevant in this case, as the Mortgage was just in one name. But there is some doubt, as to who made the payments and sent any emails/letters to the company concerned. The info that has been provided so far is incomplete. The OP has asked Halifax several times for more info on payments without response and is currently waiting following another written request. The problem that Halifax appears to have is that the payments were made to DLC and they have only provided system printouts, not the exact payment details. If DLC cannot provide evidence that the payments have come from the debtor, then Halifax might have difficulty in progressing this. So far the FOS seem to accept the info that Halifax have provided, presumably on the basis that DLC have not made a mistake with their system records. Not sure I would be so trusting of system records, but I guess the FOS tend to believe companies, unless there is contrary proof.

[perplexedofdorset]

Exactly Uncle B.

 

when i was reading through the case notes I noted that the last payment was made via a delta card, which should offer some proof, but they have not provided this. There were also some cheque payments, more proof.....

Also these differing amounts paid and dates should raise some concerns, surely Shirley???