HSBC no CCA

[citizenB]

The attached is from 1994 I think - does that help ?

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53764[/ATTACH]

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

It is not reopening an account in any way there are clauses in the sale documents of some debt portfolio lots that allow the debt purchaser to return debts purchased within the portfolio as CB said debts with PPI are often traded back in this way.

 

 

It's just a debt no longer an "account" duff debt much the same as returning a duff car to the seller for a refund.

[spartathisis]

The attached is from 1994 I think - does that help ?

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]53764[/ATTACH]

 

Thank you

 

Compared it to the most recent from HSBC, a lot has changed in 20 yrs. No mention of repurchasing, but as Brig points out it is probably contained in the debt sale contract between HSBC & whoever buys it.

 

Old and new refer to 'You have agreed by signing this agreement' to let us etc etc. Not much help really.

 

No doubt the debt sale contracts are a closely guarded secret.

 

Think I will:

1 Contact the Data Controller at HSBC (again) with a S10 Objection to processing notice.

2 Contact the CRA's with the same letter

3 Contact the ICO & FCA after the required time to cease processing data is up, 21 days?

4 Open a new Twitter account solely to 'Troll' HSBC and their poor practices in debt sales/collection etc. Had some success with Twitter & business's in the past.

 

Thanks for the help and the comments guys & gals, I will keep the thread updated.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Thank you

 

Compared it to the most recent from HSBC, a lot has changed in 20 yrs. No mention of repurchasing, but as Brig points out it is probably contained in the debt sale contract between HSBC & whoever buys it.

 

Old and new refer to 'You have agreed by signing this agreement' to let us etc etc. Not much help really.

 

No doubt the debt sale contracts are a closely guarded secret.

 

Think I will:

1 Contact the Data Controller at HSBC (again) with a S10 Objection to processing notice.

2 Contact the CRA's with the same letter

3 Contact the ICO & FCA after the required time to cease processing data is up, 21 days?

4 Open a new Twitter account solely to 'Troll' HSBC and their poor practices in debt sales/collection etc. Had some success with Twitter & business's in the past.

 

Thanks for the help and the comments guys & gals, I will keep the thread updated.

 

 

Looking through some 90s data on sale & purchase of debts, debt is merely another commodity to be bought and sold as and when the "owner" wishes.

Many large sales of debt e.g. bank and credit card debts are sold giving the purchaser the option of " returning" debts to the original creditor, reasons given (not my words) " uncollectable" (cause unknown) "defective and or missing paperwork", " improper description of sale matter"? Don't ask me what that means.

 

 

There is no mention of statute barred debts at all, so must presume that it's tough you've bought a lemon!

[spartathisis]

The big issue around all debt is Securitisation. A minefield that has become harder to find info on in the last couple of years, the banks have deleted info that was previously available.

 

Packaged CC and loan debt sold as a special purpose investment vehicle for institutional investors, and very wealthy individuals. The debt is sold to the special purpose investment vehicle (SPV) and managed by the OC, collections, bad debt etc.

I think it is one of the reasons DCA pay minimum % for debts from a OC, they have already previously sold it on to the SPV and can't risk the boat being rocked by asking for too much.

The OC does not actually own the debt they chase us for, it has been sold off to investors and they charge a fee to maintain the accounts, plus the initial one off sum for the 'investment'.

 

A good source of info here:

http://vinodkothari.com/creditcar/

& here

http://www.euromoneyplc.com/images/covers/Asset%20Securitisation%20and%20Synthetic%20Structures%20Innovations%20in%20the%20European%20Credit%20Markets/02Watson.pdf

[goodatresearch]

Very interesting. Will delve a little deeper in to this when I haven't had a glass of wine (it is saturday night after all).

 

 

 

 

 

The big issue around all debt is Securitisation. A minefield that has become harder to find info on in the last couple of years, the banks have deleted info that was previously available.

 

Packaged CC and loan debt sold as a special purpose investment vehicle for institutional investors, and very wealthy individuals. The debt is sold to the special purpose investment vehicle (SPV) and managed by the OC, collections, bad debt etc.

I think it is one of the reasons DCA pay minimum % for debts from a OC, they have already previously sold it on to the SPV and can't risk the boat being rocked by asking for too much.

The OC does not actually own the debt they chase us for, it has been sold off to investors and they charge a fee to maintain the accounts, plus the initial one off sum for the 'investment'.

 

A good source of info here:

http://vinodkothari.com/creditcar/

& here

http://www.euromoneyplc.com/images/covers/Asset%20Securitisation%20and%20Synthetic%20Structures%20Innovations%20in%20the%20European%20Credit%20Markets/02Watson.pdf

[ims21]

I am not so sure that there needs to be a buy back clause in the original agreement.

 

I had thought that securitisation was more to do with mortgages and secured loans rather than those debts/accounts founded on simple contract. I might be wrong and would be interested in any information you can point me to on securitisation of "low level" debt.

 

The buying and selling of debt is not really that complicated an area to understand but is often portrayed as a complex area.

[spartathisis]

ims21:

 

Have a look at the links above for basic info.

 

It is all debt unfortunately. 'low level debt' that is worth billions per annum go to this link and open either of the pdf's showing the details on one SPV managed by HSBC.http://www.hsbcnet.com/gbm/securitisation/investor-reports/turquoise.html

 

This thread was started 4 yrs ago and is a good start for pro/con argument on securitisation: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?244131-Securitization-Discussion

 

I am surprised no ambulance chasing compo firms have latched onto it, the debt is sold to a non credit licensed investment and then the receivables are managed by the selling company, but it has been sold and the seller has received money for it.

 

I have read that the reason so many 0% card balance transfers crop up is because the card company can sell the debt as a SPV to investors. You transfer, they accept your debt and then sell it in chunks, get part of the cash up front and a fee for collecting from you in the future.

 

HMRC don't regard it as a sale for tax purposes so not classed as selling the debt, but I believe that is because the debt/credt market would be a bigger disaster than the last slump if they said Banks etc had sold the debt to unlicensed businesses. It really is a big con and what led to the last financial mess. US investment banks were selling mortgages to folk on welfare, packaging them up and selling as investments, got an up front sum and ongoing fee for managing the account. When folk couldn't pay they took homes off them put them up for sale but no one could afford to buy them and it collapsed. That was the sub-prime bit that is talked about.

 

 

I am sure there won't be a buy back clause, but once the account is closed and sold how can they then say the agreement covers the return if there is no mention in the agreement? In my case there never was an agreement so doubly annoying.

Edited October 21, 2014 by spartathisis
missed a point

[spartathisis]

Update time!!

 

Section 10 sent to HSBC, Equifax, Experian and Call Credit regarding HSBC account only, no other data.

 

CRA's very defensive, naturally, but confirmed HSBC had removed all mention of any accounts I had with them (CC & Current Account). HSBC have failed to reply, but as they have removed all references with the CRA's not going to pursue it with them.

 

Checked credit files and nothing untoward showing on any of them. Noddle says I am 4/5 creditworthy!!!

 

I am chalking this up as a success as 18 months ish before SB.

 

3 months until Cabot biggie (£10k) is SB and RBS & Alliance & Leicester in 6 months, none able to provide an agreement that complies with the CCA.

 

Might apply for a mobile phone contract to start rebuilding my credit up a bit.

 

A big thanks to everyone at CAG for help and advice (inc Brig ). I wish I had found CAG a few years earlier as things would have been so different right now.

[Falcokeith]

What a fantastic read (Except a few posts of course)

 

 

Spartathisis I have thought the same regarding no CCA so how can they process data on CRA's seeing your success has made me decide to try the same thing and congratulations for it seems your persistance paid off

[spartathisis]

The CRA's used the argument that they only report what is given to them by creditors and do not have to do a thorough check on whether they have permission to process.

This is of course bull*hit. How can you process data if no permission has been given in the first place. The EU are looking to curb their get out by insisting implied permission and a general we can process data through 'legitimate' interests cannot be used.

 

If there is no CCA available then I would press the OC to stop processing your data and use Grace & Anor v Blackhorse Ltd [2014] and similar cases to put pressure on their reporting to CRA's.

[goodatresearch]

The Grace case is a very important decision and creditors are trying their best to ignore it. It will also be interesting to see how the the EUs view on this will pan out.

 

The CRA's used the argument that they only report what is given to them by creditors and do not have to do a thorough check on whether they have permission to process.

This is of course bull*hit. How can you process data if no permission has been given in the first place. The EU are looking to curb their get out by insisting implied permission and a general we can process data through 'legitimate' interests cannot be used.

 

If there is no CCA available then I would press the OC to stop processing your data and use Grace & Anor v Blackhorse Ltd [2014] and similar cases to put pressure on their reporting to CRA's.

[angel_1]

hiya spartathisis, well done it looks like I need to read u p on your success as ive had another ccj form through and I need to sort out maybe your success may help me too, cag has been fab for me in the past and thus now I hope I can get a donation to them as I need help again, they know me too well I keep coming back like a bad penny but everyone is so helpful and looks like your success will help others too, good luck in credit building ciao ... angel