Ingeus

[Masso]

Maybe these secret jobs are cold calling jobs?...

 

At my local Ingeus branch they refer to the cold calling jobs as EST vacancies, I think it stands for Employment Services Team???...A team of fully "trained"

Admin Clerks cold call companies to harass them.

 

So, these maybe the hidden jobs? COLD CALLING PEOPLE FOR JOBS, desperate times ahead for Ingeus

[Chester6]

Maybe these secret jobs are cold calling jobs?...

 

At my local Ingeus branch they refer the cold calling jobs as EST vacancies, I think it stands for Employment Services Team???...

 

So, these maybe the hidden jobs? COLD CALLING PEOPLE FOR JOBS, desperate times ahead for Ingeus

 

Or Extremely Stupid Trick

[osdset]

The one thing guaranteed to really p1ss off employers is droves of people cold calling them for vacancies, the pimps promote this method with gusto because it's pretty much all they have left in the pitiful arsenal they started off with, they just will not accept that the jobs aren't there, the whole industry is in denial.

[Chester6]

The one thing guaranteed to really p1ss off employers is droves of people cold calling them for vacancies, the pimps promote this method with gusto because it's pretty much all they have left in the pitiful arsenal they started off with, they just will not accept that the jobs aren't there, the whole industry is in denial.

 

It's also promoted so as to look like the jobseeker is doing something as the staff highly recommend spec letters, some say this will add to the list of things you are doing to find work so the jobcentre will not sanction you (ironic?)

[stikky62]

It's also promoted so as to look like the jobseeker is doing something as the staff highly recommend spec letters, some say this will add to the list of things you are doing to find work so the jobcentre will not sanction you (ironic?)

 

Part of my JSAg is to write 'on spec' to 10 employers per week. As I was being 'advised' this was part of the JSAg I said that was ridiculous and wasn't going to happen. I've signed on 3 times since then and not written to a single employer (apart from proper job applications).I.m.o it is totally pointless.

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Maybe these secret jobs are cold calling jobs?...

 

At my local Ingeus branch they refer to the cold calling jobs as EST vacancies, I think it stands for Employment Services Team???...A team of fully "trained"

Admin Clerks cold call companies to harass them.

 

So, these maybe the hidden jobs? COLD CALLING PEOPLE FOR JOBS, desperate times ahead for Ingeus

Why go to such a burden ? The Employer Services Team more than likely comprise Clerks who spend Monday-Friday, 9-5 scanning other Jobs Boards, transcribing details onto an internal system. If they possessed the competence to telephone employers, and cold call them on behalf of candidates, they would be actually working in related businesses, and working for a living - rather than being subsidised on £20K per annum at the expense of the taxpayer.

[Bullpoofilter]

Ok, probably a good time to clear up a few things.

 

I understand that I'm not going to be on everyone's christmas card list. However, what I can do is perhaps resolve some of the common misconceptions that seem to appear so often.

 

Firstly the one that's going to annoy most of you. An advisor (or 'clerk' for you rebecca) starts at just over £24k - it's not uncommon to earn just over £30k once you're established in the role.

 

I've seen the conversation on here develop over the weekend but wasn't going to sit and tap a response on my telephone in-case the grammar police come out to call me nasty names.

 

Developing meaningful relationships with employers is the aim of the Employer Services Team and it's something that they do very well indeed. However, a relationship is one thing - vacancies are another. I know of EST workers spending time visiting companies to come away with an excellent relationship and an offer of vacancies when they become available. That said, I also know of several big companies in our local area that do use the EST team for all of their external recruitment and this works very well for those interested in those types of work.

 

Which takes me on to the next point. There's clearly a feeling that Work Programme providers only chase what are termed as low-grade jobs. Well, here's the uncomfortable bit - what might constitute a 'low grade' role for you may be out of the reach of someone else. Equally, what might be an ideal job for you might be so far out of touch for someone else that they'd never consider it.

 

So where does a provider focus? On the roles that are going to have the most impact for the most people?

 

An example of this is probably the most common story in the office I worked in.

The construction industry collapsed in a apocalyptic fashion in our area leaving thousands of people without work. This was bad enough however those impacted most heavily were the labourers, relatively low-skilled compared to their tradespeople counterparts the market for these people was awash and simple supply and demand economics took hold.

 

The issue was brutally simple, hundreds of people chasing a few temporary jobs meant that the agencies moved in. Where a construction company may have had 10 or 15 general labourers on a full time permanment basis they now hired them by the hour. A week here, four days there as and when the work was available.

 

Add into this a group of people that 'only want to work outdoors' who have limited skills beyond their experience in the construction industry and perhaps a 'ticket' to use a chainsaw or dumper truck.

 

So, what to do? You can offer training into roles that are available but then again, of the hundreds of these people I met, I could count those willing to work in an office environment on one hand.

 

So, I guess the response is to 'train them properly', but to do what? After all, if they will only consider working outdoors then what else is there? Every labourer is already chasing every gardening job. If they're trained to become doctors can the NHS sustain them? What about HGV driving, is the transport industry not already struggling to employ those already trained?

 

I see lots of 'they don't offer proper training' yet few suggestions as to what might be considered 'proper training' and which industry could sustainably employ people once trained. Trust me when I say that some of the people I met needed basic education before they embarked on anything like 'proper training'. People who could neither read nor write were commonplace so how does this person best improve their chances? I spent hours completing application forms and calling employers to introduce people in this exact situation.

 

Employment in the UK is changing, fact. Employers expect people to be adaptable and intelligent, something I can see that all of you are. However, what were boom industries are now on their knees so perhaps that adaptability needs to be around what we choose to do for a living.

 

I'm a project manager by 'trade' but at the end of my last project I didn't have another to go to, hence the stop-over with Ingeus - sooner something than nothing.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, what is your 'high-grade' job, what is it you're looking and waiting for?

Does that job really exist in any numbers anymore?

Do you have the neccessary skills and experience to bag that job when it comes up, if not how can you improve your chances?

Does your advisor / clerk know what your real ideal job is?

Have you really considered the alternatives?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Last bit, and I guess it's specific to one person and it's about the temporary role in the post office and the questions around that.

 

First of all, well done on getting the job. Experience is experience and there's not many substitutes for it.

 

Secondly, with regards to the advisor's apparent reaction I'll endeavour to explain the things that I'd have discussed with you had you of been working with me.

 

When moving into work from JSA there are several helping hands available, albeit they're not spectacular but rent run-ons, back to work credit etc can be dependant upon a continous claim in excess of 6 months. Now, if you've had a break in your claim in the last 6 months then it makes no diffence - a break being another job / failing to sign / sanctions.

 

Frankly, the sustainment payments are of relatively low consequence to an individual advisor.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Bullpoofilter

[Masso]

@Bullpoofilter

 

Sorry for my comment....

Edited December 31, 2012 by Masso

[Bullpoofilter]

@Bullpoofilter

 

I take it your real name is Bull Sh%7?...

 

What's the percentage I'm right? lol

 

It's an old nickname from a previous job. I was known as a bulls*&t filter because it didn't get past me when it was sent in my direction. One of the joys of project management is that lots of people try to bulls&*t you on the progress of their assigned tasks.

[antone]

@Bullpoofilter

 

I take it your real name is Bull Sh%7?...

 

What's the percentage I'm right? lol

 

There's no call for that. If you want to disagree, please do so in a civil manner.

[Masso]

 

Secondly, with regards to the advisor's apparent reaction I'll endeavour to explain the things that I'd have discussed with you had you of been working with me.

 

When moving into work from JSA there are several helping hands available, albeit they're not spectacular but rent run-ons, back to work credit etc can be dependant upon a continous claim in excess of 6 months. Now, if you've had a break in your claim in the last 6 months then it makes no diffence - a break being another job / failing to sign / sanctions.

 

Frankly, the sustainment payments are of relatively low consequence to an individual advisor.

 

If i buy something from a shop, then i pay for it. If i fill up my car with petrol, then i pay for it....

 

If i get a job whilst with Ingeus, then Ingeus get paid for it...

 

WHY?...

 

Money is given to someone for a service. If no service is given, then why should they be paid? It's like me going to some random person and giving them money for nothing.

[Chester6]

The perception about jobs is due to the observation that many supposed successes are temp/warehouse work and it's agency jobs

The perception for me is that they get the easiest vacancies filled because so many are pushed into going for these and it's easy money

It's like when the work experience is always charity shops as opposed to non-charity,. it's easier to get people into a charity shop or a charity role then in other roles

[Bullpoofilter]

If i buy something from a shop, then i pay for it. If i fill up my car with petrol, then i pay for it....

 

If i get a job whilst with Ingeus, then Ingeus get paid for it...

 

WHY?...

 

Money is given to someone for a service. If no service is given, then why should they be paid? It's like me going to some random person and giving them money for nothing.

 

In an ideal situation both you and your adviser would be working together to help make the process of finding and then getting a job easier. This might take many forms from interview and application coaching or help getting clothing and travel expenses or even introductory phone calls / visits.

 

The 'service' then is whatever assistance and guidance is provided. Now, I'm smart enough to know that not everyone has had a good experience of this and often will find the intervention an invasion of privacy and autonomy. In my opinion then there lies a mutual responsibility on both parties to find a better way of working together. There's no point spending the time that you're mandated to spend together arguing. At least try to get something from the time.

 

It's a question I asked an awful lot and found it very useful especially when I was met with a blank look. The thought of spending my time to no avail just doesn't seem right and so I'd ask what the person sat next to me wanted from the meeting and would not accept 'I dunno' as an answer. Starting the conversation was at least a beginning.

[Bullpoofilter]

The perception about jobs is due to the observation that many supposed successes are temp/warehouse work and it's agency jobs

The perception for me is that they get the easiest vacancies filled because so many are pushed into going for these and it's easy money

It's like when the work experience is always charity shops as opposed to non-charity,. it's easier to get people into a charity shop or a charity role then in other roles

 

I guess the question is easier for who? Despite me desperately wanting to, I couldn't go in and do the interview for someone who didn't feel comfortable or confident in that environment.

 

So even if we had gone into a higher level job interview would that person be able to make a good account of themselves and explain how their own experiences related to the role? I would really hope so but experience of interviewing people before and since my time at Ingeus shows that people can really struggle so a good experience might just give someone the boost in confidence that helps. I would have loved for my clients to be successful in every application they made and did what I could to help but I couldn't do it all for them.

 

The third sector is an excellent place to work and if distribution is your thing then great but it all comes to who is recruiting and for what? Like I said earlier where does the skill set of the applicants lie? Would they consider training for and then doing something that wasn't their first choice or are they looking for something rather than nothing. What might be considered easy for one might be beyond the reach of many.

[G4C389]

Just a question when an advisor says they will stay in contact with you to see how you're getting on in a job and its the communications centre who contacts you instead what does this mean? I took it that she was busy. My advisor even said on the end if an e-mail 'hope youre okay, chat soon' but never did, because I really needed the support at times aswell

[estellyn]

Ok, probably a good time to clear up a few things.

 

I understand that I'm not going to be on everyone's christmas card list. However, what I can do is perhaps resolve some of the common misconceptions that seem to appear so often.

 

Firstly the one that's going to annoy most of you. An advisor (or 'clerk' for you rebecca) starts at just over £24k - it's not uncommon to earn just over £30k once you're established in the role.

 

I've seen the conversation on here develop over the weekend but wasn't going to sit and tap a response on my telephone in-case the grammar police come out to call me nasty names.

 

Developing meaningful relationships with employers is the aim of the Employer Services Team and it's something that they do very well indeed. However, a relationship is one thing - vacancies are another. I know of EST workers spending time visiting companies to come away with an excellent relationship and an offer of vacancies when they become available. That said, I also know of several big companies in our local area that do use the EST team for all of their external recruitment and this works very well for those interested in those types of work.

 

Which takes me on to the next point. There's clearly a feeling that Work Programme providers only chase what are termed as low-grade jobs. Well, here's the uncomfortable bit - what might constitute a 'low grade' role for you may be out of the reach of someone else. Equally, what might be an ideal job for you might be so far out of touch for someone else that they'd never consider it.

 

So where does a provider focus? On the roles that are going to have the most impact for the most people?

 

An example of this is probably the most common story in the office I worked in.

The construction industry collapsed in a apocalyptic fashion in our area leaving thousands of people without work. This was bad enough however those impacted most heavily were the labourers, relatively low-skilled compared to their tradespeople counterparts the market for these people was awash and simple supply and demand economics took hold.

 

The issue was brutally simple, hundreds of people chasing a few temporary jobs meant that the agencies moved in. Where a construction company may have had 10 or 15 general labourers on a full time permanment basis they now hired them by the hour. A week here, four days there as and when the work was available.

 

Add into this a group of people that 'only want to work outdoors' who have limited skills beyond their experience in the construction industry and perhaps a 'ticket' to use a chainsaw or dumper truck.

 

So, what to do? You can offer training into roles that are available but then again, of the hundreds of these people I met, I could count those willing to work in an office environment on one hand.

 

So, I guess the response is to 'train them properly', but to do what? After all, if they will only consider working outdoors then what else is there? Every labourer is already chasing every gardening job. If they're trained to become doctors can the NHS sustain them? What about HGV driving, is the transport industry not already struggling to employ those already trained?

 

I see lots of 'they don't offer proper training' yet few suggestions as to what might be considered 'proper training' and which industry could sustainably employ people once trained. Trust me when I say that some of the people I met needed basic education before they embarked on anything like 'proper training'. People who could neither read nor write were commonplace so how does this person best improve their chances? I spent hours completing application forms and calling employers to introduce people in this exact situation.

 

Employment in the UK is changing, fact. Employers expect people to be adaptable and intelligent, something I can see that all of you are. However, what were boom industries are now on their knees so perhaps that adaptability needs to be around what we choose to do for a living.

 

I'm a project manager by 'trade' but at the end of my last project I didn't have another to go to, hence the stop-over with Ingeus - sooner something than nothing.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, what is your 'high-grade' job, what is it you're looking and waiting for?

Does that job really exist in any numbers anymore?

Do you have the neccessary skills and experience to bag that job when it comes up, if not how can you improve your chances?

Does your advisor / clerk know what your real ideal job is?

Have you really considered the alternatives?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Last bit, and I guess it's specific to one person and it's about the temporary role in the post office and the questions around that.

 

First of all, well done on getting the job. Experience is experience and there's not many substitutes for it.

 

Secondly, with regards to the advisor's apparent reaction I'll endeavour to explain the things that I'd have discussed with you had you of been working with me.

 

When moving into work from JSA there are several helping hands available, albeit they're not spectacular but rent run-ons, back to work credit etc can be dependant upon a continous claim in excess of 6 months. Now, if you've had a break in your claim in the last 6 months then it makes no diffence - a break being another job / failing to sign / sanctions.

 

Frankly, the sustainment payments are of relatively low consequence to an individual advisor.

 

Just wanted to say thanks for spending the time to share your perspective on these issues, especially on such a highly charged thread. Your insight is very valuable to this discussion.

[Bullpoofilter]

Just a question when an advisor says they will stay in contact with you to see how you're getting on in a job and its the communications centre who contacts you instead what does this mean? I took it that she was busy. My advisor even said on the end if an e-mail 'hope youre okay, chat soon' but never did, because I really needed the support at times aswell

 

G4,

 

It's difficult for me to explain exactly the reason why your adviser didn't contact you personally. I would be making excuses for them to be fair.

 

However, it's the job of the contact centre staff to stay in touch with you and them calling is nothing out of the ordinary. I can only suggest, although it may be too little too late to say that if there is something happening then to call the office and speak with your adviser over the phone or even reply to the email.

 

In all honesty the role of an advisor is very demanding at times and I'm sorry that it seems your call from your advisor fell victim to this.

[G4C389]

G4,

 

It's difficult for me to explain exactly the reason why your adviser didn't contact you personally. I would be making excuses for them to be fair.

 

However, it's the job of the contact centre staff to stay in touch with you and them calling is nothing out of the ordinary. I can only suggest, although it may be too little too late to say that if there is something happening then to call the office and speak with your adviser over the phone or even reply to the email.

 

In all honesty the role of an advisor is very demanding at times and I'm sorry that it seems your call from your advisor fell victim to this.

 

Thank you that actually male me feel a little assured, she said to me in person she would stay in touch but I thought at the time it was a moment thing, and once I had that first phone call off the contact centre it crossed my mind to to think 'my advisors probably got 100 better things to worry about,

[Bakatcha]

All well and good bullpoofilter. However your post only confirms my own experiences and opinions i.e. that the whole WP is just not fit for purpose. Why do I say this? Because there are a limited number of paying jobs and more than enough people to do them. That's just simple arithmetic. So we have thousands of people in the W2W industry and all they are doing is playing musical chairs with the "stock". As one aluminus of the WP obtains a job (with or without assistance) it means that the person who would otherwise have secured that position doesn't do so. Thus the total number of unemployed remains unchanged - but a significant wedge of money gets passed from the public purse into the pockets of the grasping owners of the W2W outfits.

At best (and this really is clutching at straws) all the industry does is influence which people get the available work. Thus the pool of labour continues to be churned through the W2W with no benefit to the economy at all and every churn generating a nice little earner for the likes of Emma Harrison. There is a solution to this terrible mess but it does not lie with the W2W industry.

[Bullpoofilter]

Bakatcha, I have to ask.

 

Why do you refer to your fellow forum members as stock? I get the reference to livestock but how is it helpful? How does someone already feeling brow beaten enough to come online and seek help to see that one of their peers refers to them as stock feel?

[RebeccaPidgeon]

Ok, probably a good time to clear up a few things.

 

I understand that I'm not going to be on everyone's christmas card list. However, what I can do is perhaps resolve some of the common misconceptions that seem to appear so often.

 

Firstly the one that's going to annoy most of you. An advisor (or 'clerk' for you rebecca) starts at just over £24k - it's not uncommon to earn just over £30k once you're established in the role.

 

I've seen the conversation on here develop over the weekend but wasn't going to sit and tap a response on my telephone in-case the grammar police come out to call me nasty names.

 

Developing meaningful relationships with employers is the aim of the Employer Services Team and it's something that they do very well indeed. However, a relationship is one thing - vacancies are another. I know of EST workers spending time visiting companies to come away with an excellent relationship and an offer of vacancies when they become available. That said, I also know of several big companies in our local area that do use the EST team for all of their external recruitment and this works very well for those interested in those types of work.

 

Which takes me on to the next point. There's clearly a feeling that Work Programme providers only chase what are termed as low-grade jobs. Well, here's the uncomfortable bit - what might constitute a 'low grade' role for you may be out of the reach of someone else. Equally, what might be an ideal job for you might be so far out of touch for someone else that they'd never consider it.

 

So where does a provider focus? On the roles that are going to have the most impact for the most people?

 

An example of this is probably the most common story in the office I worked in.

The construction industry collapsed in a apocalyptic fashion in our area leaving thousands of people without work. This was bad enough however those impacted most heavily were the labourers, relatively low-skilled compared to their tradespeople counterparts the market for these people was awash and simple supply and demand economics took hold.

 

The issue was brutally simple, hundreds of people chasing a few temporary jobs meant that the agencies moved in. Where a construction company may have had 10 or 15 general labourers on a full time permanment basis they now hired them by the hour. A week here, four days there as and when the work was available.

 

Add into this a group of people that 'only want to work outdoors' who have limited skills beyond their experience in the construction industry and perhaps a 'ticket' to use a chainsaw or dumper truck.

 

So, what to do? You can offer training into roles that are available but then again, of the hundreds of these people I met, I could count those willing to work in an office environment on one hand.

 

So, I guess the response is to 'train them properly', but to do what? After all, if they will only consider working outdoors then what else is there? Every labourer is already chasing every gardening job. If they're trained to become doctors can the NHS sustain them? What about HGV driving, is the transport industry not already struggling to employ those already trained?

 

I see lots of 'they don't offer proper training' yet few suggestions as to what might be considered 'proper training' and which industry could sustainably employ people once trained. Trust me when I say that some of the people I met needed basic education before they embarked on anything like 'proper training'. People who could neither read nor write were commonplace so how does this person best improve their chances? I spent hours completing application forms and calling employers to introduce people in this exact situation.

 

Employment in the UK is changing, fact. Employers expect people to be adaptable and intelligent, something I can see that all of you are. However, what were boom industries are now on their knees so perhaps that adaptability needs to be around what we choose to do for a living.

 

I'm a project manager by 'trade' but at the end of my last project I didn't have another to go to, hence the stop-over with Ingeus - sooner something than nothing.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So, what is your 'high-grade' job, what is it you're looking and waiting for?

Does that job really exist in any numbers anymore?

Do you have the neccessary skills and experience to bag that job when it comes up, if not how can you improve your chances?

Does your advisor / clerk know what your real ideal job is?

Have you really considered the alternatives?

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Last bit, and I guess it's specific to one person and it's about the temporary role in the post office and the questions around that.

 

First of all, well done on getting the job. Experience is experience and there's not many substitutes for it.

 

Secondly, with regards to the advisor's apparent reaction I'll endeavour to explain the things that I'd have discussed with you had you of been working with me.

 

When moving into work from JSA there are several helping hands available, albeit they're not spectacular but rent run-ons, back to work credit etc can be dependant upon a continous claim in excess of 6 months. Now, if you've had a break in your claim in the last 6 months then it makes no diffence - a break being another job / failing to sign / sanctions.

 

Frankly, the sustainment payments are of relatively low consequence to an individual advisor.

To put things in perspective, the Welfare To Work Sector occupies a position at a lower point in the Economic Food Chain than Job Centre Plus - the organisations may be sustained solely on the basis of Public Contracts, and it makes not one jot whether individual Clerks are paid £19K-£24K (quoted in some adverts), they are not employed within the Wealth Creating Sector, and neither are they employed within any Call Centre. Indeed, if they could acquire a job which required a modicum of skill and competence, they would be working in a Call Centre, and not the Welfare To Work Sector.

[antone]

Bakatcha, I have to ask.

 

Why do you refer to your fellow forum members as stock? I get the reference to livestock but how is it helpful? How does someone already feeling brow beaten enough to come online and seek help to see that one of their peers refers to them as stock feel?

 

I'd advise that you read around and learn more about our forum culture before making remarks like this.

[Bullpoofilter]

I'd advise that you read around and learn more about our forum culture before making remarks like this.

 

Noted, thanks Antone.

[beezley]

@Bullpoofilter

 

I just wonder.....how does it feel to have done a job for however long you did it for, then realise that more people would have found work even if you did not exist?

 

Sorry but it is the truth.

 

Maybe get a manual job, at least you will be creating something?

Edited December 31, 2012 by beezley

[RaeUK]

To be fair, a job's a job. It's the system that's at fault not the workers. A bit like blaming the bank clerk for the banking crisis ...