Confusion regarding my legal rights? ***WON***

[mark james]

Can a bailiff still enforce a warrant for his fees, despite me paying the creditor/local authority PCN debt, directly to the local authority?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark.

Edited January 12, 2011 by mark james

[rebel11]

Hi Mark

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will advise as soon as they are available.

[king100]

Can a bailiff still enforce a warrant for his fees, despite me paying the creditor/local authority PCN debt, directly to the local authority?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark.

 

As far as I remmeber from other posts, NO. Especially if his fees are excessive.

 

Has he visited you at all, levied on any goods.

 

A time line would be better for anyone to let you definately know.

 

How much parking ticket for?

When did you realise bailiffs were instructed?

What is he charging you in his fees?

 

Etc

Edited January 12, 2011 by king100

[mark james]

As far as I remmeber from other posts, NO. Especially if his fees are excessive.

 

Has he visited you at all, levied on any goods.

 

A time line would be better for anyone to let you definately know.

 

How much parking ticket for?

When did you realise bailiffs were instructed?

What is he charging you in his fees?

 

Etc

The bailiff turned up on my doorstep (acknowledging it was his 1st visit) and proceeded to charge me £248.20p for the privileged. This was £105 for the PCN, £5 court fee, £11.20 for his phantom 1st letter , then £127 costs. Where the costs came from, I have no idea. I challenged him knowing he was only able to charge 28% of the debt + 1st letter(including VAT) He was adamant his fees were lawful, despite no car being clamped or towed away.

 

With the knowledge we were in the process of being fleeced, we decided to pay the outstanding £110 debt, directly to the local authority, who accepted payment. I also requested a SAR's from the DCA, with a complete breakdown of costs, only to be given the same generic breakdown. I spoke to the DCA manger who continued to perpetrate the myth his bailiff fully complied with the law and was within his rights to charge what he did on his 1st visit.

 

He continued with threats of having the right to pursue his fees, despite the debt being paid directly to the local authority. It is the alleged right of the bailiff to pursue his fees via the existing warrant, I am ignorant of and seek advice. I am in the process of paying the outstanding balance under protest and under duress, because my wife doesn't want to see the car towed/clamped with another £150+ added on top.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Mark.

[caledfwlch]

As far as I know, once the original creditor has been paid all that is owed, any bailiff fees are a civil matter between you and the bailiff, by paying the original money, the warrant has been cancelled, and he may not use it for his fees.

 

And also afaik, the Bailiff wouldnt have much luck going for a CCJ since he cannot prove a contract exists between you and himself, mainly because there is not one

[king100]

As far as I know, once the original creditor has been paid all that is owed, any bailiff fees are a civil matter between you and the bailiff, by paying the original money, the warrant has been cancelled, and he may not use it for his fees.

 

And also afaik, the Bailiff wouldnt have much luck going for a CCJ since he cannot prove a contract exists between you and himself, mainly because there is not one

 

I would agree, its his 1st visit and he didn't levy on your car, so personally I would tell him to Foxtrot Oscar. If you want your fees take me to court. He cant clamp your vehicle for bailiff fees.

 

Halo or tom will be around to respond better.

Edited January 12, 2011 by king100
can for cant

[josephbloggs]

I would agree, its his 1st visit and he didn't levy on your car, so personally I would tell him to Foxtrot Oscar. If you want your fees take me to court. He can clamp your vehicle for bailiff fees.

 

in response to this:- unlike council tax, the bailiff doesnt have to levy to charge the fees because if not levying then the fee goes on as a visit fee. so the fees are valid i would of thought, so should be paid.

[king100]

I would agree, its his 1st visit and he didn't levy on your car, so personally I would tell him to Foxtrot Oscar. If you want your fees take me to court. He can clamp your vehicle for bailiff fees.

 

in response to this:- unlike council tax, the bailiff doesnt have to levy to charge the fees because if not levying then the fee goes on as a visit fee. so the fees are valid i would of thought, so should be paid.

 

Example of what he should be charged.

 

Original Parking Ticket: £80

If paid within the discounted period of 14 days: £40

If unpaid, original debt of £80 increases by 50% to: £120

Court Fee: £5

Warrant of Execution amount: £125

The amount of £125 is passed to the bailiff to collect.

If you pay on receipt of a first letter you should pay: £138.16 - No letter no fee

If you pay when a first visit is made you should pay: £182.97

 

So I wouldent pay a penny until he has correct fees.

[king100]

The bailiff turned up on my doorstep (acknowledging it was his 1st visit) and proceeded to charge me £248.20p for the privileged. This was £105 for the PCN, £5 court fee, £11.20 for his phantom 1st letter , then £127 costs. Where the costs came from, I have no idea. I challenged him knowing he was only able to charge 28% of the debt + 1st letter(including VAT) He was adamant his fees were lawful, despite no car being clamped or towed away.

 

With the knowledge we were in the process of being fleeced, we decided to pay the outstanding £110 debt, directly to the local authority, who accepted payment. I also requested a SAR's from the DCA, with a complete breakdown of costs, only to be given the same generic breakdown. I spoke to the DCA manger who continued to perpetrate the myth his bailiff fully complied with the law and was within his rights to charge what he did on his 1st visit.

 

He continued with threats of having the right to pursue his fees, despite the debt being paid directly to the local authority. It is the alleged right of the bailiff to pursue his fees via the existing warrant, I am ignorant of and seek advice. I am in the process of paying the outstanding balance under protest and under duress, because my wife doesn't want to see the car towed/clamped with another £150+ added on top.

 

Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Mark.

 

Road Traffic (parking penalties)

 

Fees

 

For preparing and sending a letter advising the client that a warrant is with bailiff and requesting the sum due £10

 

For levying distress where the sum due is not more than £100 £25

For levying distress where the sum due is more than £100 25% on the first £200 and 5% on any sum over £200.

 

For attending to levy distress but where no levy is made Reasonable costs, but not more than the fees that could be charged if a levy were made.

 

The fee for sending a letter to the debtor can be charged only if the letter is sent before a first visit is made.

 

Bailiffs are allowed to charge the fees for a maximum of three visits only.

 

You only need pay him £27.50 + VAT hand that too him and tell him to FO.

[fork-it]

Can a bailiff still enforce a warrant for his fees, despite me paying the creditor/local authority PCN debt, directly to the local authority?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark.

 

No.

 

Section 45(3) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

(3) If, before any goods are seized, the appropriate amount (including charges arising up to the time of the payment or tender) is paid or tendered to the authority, the authority shall accept the amount and the levy shall not be proceeded with.

 

Source: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/45/made

 

 

The Courts also agree the same: JBW Enforcement Ltd v City of Westminster [2009] EWHC 2697 (QB), the Judge, Mr Justice Jack said:

 

Thus the bailiff gets paid only through the process of execution: if he becomes entitled to charge fees, but does not continue with the execution process, he will not recover them and he cannot sue the debtor for them.

 

Source: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/2697.html

[king100]

Fork it

 

It's for a pcn so I thought that it differs from council tax in regards to feeS

[mark james]

I just received a phone call from the local authority. They confirm and acknowledge receipt of the outstanding PCN fine/debt being paid, but they are refusing to rescind the warrant because the bailiff have outstanding fees to collect, for, in their own words "SERVICES RENDERED"

 

I stated the court warrant granted, is only to collect the debt and not to be used as a cloak for any DCA, to hide behind in order to collect their fees. I stated any dispute between myself and the DCA regarding fees is a civil matter. The poor council worker who relayed the message just said, "this is the message I'm meant to give to you, I'm sorry".

 

I'm sure what Broxbourne is doing is illegal/unconstitutional? Another example of local government out of control perhaps? To say I'm disappointed is an understatement. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance, Mark.

[brassnecked]

surely the warranr dies with the debt for the pcn when it is paid, and therefore is null and void, with nothing for the bailiff to enforce?

 

Would continued enforcement then give OP ground to claim against council AND bailiff?

[mark james]

surely the warranr dies with the debt for the pcn when it is paid, and therefore is null and void, with nothing for the bailiff to enforce?

 

Would continued enforcement then give OP ground to claim against council AND bailiff?

 

I'm still shell-shocked myself. There is clearly a very cosy working relationship, between the bailiffs and the local council. Worrying whether my car will be towed away for owing the bailiff £128 in fees, with the inevitability of added fees, leaves me slightly worried. What the hell are my rights? I am mega confused. As for my views on my local authority. Dont ask. I feel seriously shafted. I dont even know if the parking services manager consulted legal and is just doing this off his own back? I'm lost for words.

[fork-it]

Fork it

 

It's for a pcn so I thought that it differs from council tax in regards to feeS

 

Sorry, your right, the legislaiton quoted is not PCNs, but still, the 2nd point is a parking ticket case.

[mark james]

Good news. The bailiff company has decided to write off their fees. Requesting the SAR's, writing the official complaint letter, as well as them knowing I recorded their [edit] by audio, must have jolted their tiny brains into dropping all their fees. The conduct of the council, still leaves a lot to be desired. Thankfully the £128 these [edit] wanted to [edit] from me, can now be spent on my family [edit]. I still want to file a Form 4 complaint against the bailiff, because this kind of behaviour seems to be the norm in this industry and should be stopped. Thank you CAG for some of the advice I have received. Without forums like this, many people like myself would be completely clueless and helpless.

 

Mark.

Edited January 14, 2011 by steven4064
this post was potentially libelous and has been edited accordingly

[hallowitch]

well done mark

 

will ask the site team to add win to your thread

[steven4064]

Well done Mark - thread title changed as requested

[king100]

Can a bailiff still enforce a warrant for his fees, despite me paying the creditor/local authority PCN debt, directly to the local authority?

 

Thanks in advance, Mark.

 

Please explain what has happened for you to win?

[brassnecked]

Please explain what has happened for you to win?

 

 

It appears OP paid directly avoided the bailiff rendering the fees uncollectable. If bailiffs went to court to gain a CCj for their fees they would likely fail, as there is no ground for their claim imho. Others will know more

[mark james]

It appears OP paid directly avoided the bailiff rendering the fees uncollectable. If bailiffs went to court to gain a CCj for their fees they would likely fail, as there is no ground for their claim imho. Others will know more

 

I only paid the local authority directly, because I knew the fees the bailiffs were charging were wrong, in order to put a stop to extra fees. IE; further phantom visits etc. I knew they was basically defrauding me and like any business I conduct, I record them all. I had no issues paying the bailiff their appropriate fees, because the missus had brought this on herself. What I seriously objected to, was being fleeced but a bunch of Eastend, wide boy, knuckle draggers. When their costs on a 1st visit was more than my fine, I just blew my top. Even if it was £90 odd quid, I would have settled. It was the magical 3 figure mark what broke the Camels back. I threatened them back, I informed trading standards, threatened the bailiff with a county court detail assessment, threatened the bailiff with a form 4 complaint(backed up by audio evidence) threatened to make a complaint to the police for extortion and in the end they gave up. What really upsets me, was the council taking the side of the bailiff and ready to sell me out, by keeping the warrant open. Consumer rights regarding bailiff conduct need changing. They should be open to serious fines, if the jump out of line. Recording your private conversations are legal. You just are not allowed to give them to a 3rd party, but you can use it as evidence regarding legal issues. I think it's what saved me in the end.

[josephbloggs]

i thought if you record someone without either informing them or asking there permission, and try and use it against them, it would be inadmissable in court?

[steven4064]

That would be true in the US but not here

[mark james]

i thought if you record someone without either informing them or asking there permission, and try and use it against them, it would be inadmissable in court?

 

UK law is very clear according to the advice I was given. You have to inform the person you are talking to, if you wish to give the recorded conversation to a 3rd party, or use it for training purposes. If you are using it in a court of law to defend yourself, or accuse somebody else, then it is entirely legal.

 

As for recording somebody in a public place, or a private meeting in a restaurant etc, I dont know how the law stands. But regarding conversations on your home telephone number, it is 100% legal to record and to be used in your defence.

[brassnecked]

UK law is very clear according to the advice I was given. You have to inform the person you are talking to, if you wish to give the recorded conversation to a 3rd party, or use it for training purposes. If you are using it in a court of law to defend yourself, or accuse somebody else, then it is entirely legal.

 

As for recording somebody in a public place, or a private meeting in a restaurant etc, I dont know how the law stands. But regarding conversations on your home telephone number, it is 100% legal to record and to be used in your defence.

 

True, and you don't have to tell them you are recording them, unless you are a business. I had issues with a company, when I phoned them they had the usual call being recorded guff, so I told the person I was also recording the call, he said he didn't give me permission to do so, I told him that permission didn't come in to it, he said I cannot continue the call, I said communication in writing only in future then, and put the phone down.