PLEASE HELP! Tribunal Edvice for Disclosure & Bundle, Bad Respondent!

[emmap1978]

Experts of CAG, I hope you can assist ...

 

I'm embroiled in a ET claim against a former employer for unfair dismissal. But, I'm encountering significant resistance from the Respondent's representatives.

 

Their solicitors were ordered by the ET to prepare the Bundle. However every piece of incriminating evidence I have against their client that I want included, they challenge the relevance over. Even after I explain the relevance, they still reject the explanations and refuse to include them. Plus, their male solicitor has been incredibly condescending to me as well, making me feel a proper fool almost every step of the way! Even though, I *KNOW* I have a strong case, and I think tat is why he is giving me such a hard time and pushing back.

 

As the Claimant, I am 100% positive these documents are relevant and critical to my case!! I think their solicitor is intentionally dragging this out, wasting my time and trying to bully me.

 

I really have few options now, and I thought I'd come to the good people of CAG for some help.

 

I know there are some very smart people on here who might, in the interest of the holidays, help me out. I really will be grateful for any, any, ANY time you can offer!

 

It the solicitor and I cannot agree on the Bundle, what recourse do I have? Can I take over responsibility for putting the Bundle together myself, so I will be in control? The ET Order stipulated the Respondent should put it together since it appeared they had most of the original documents. Over time, however, that has not been true; I actually wound up being in possession of most of the original documents. If I did that, other than costs, what other risks are there? Will their solicitor be ale to make demands of me now in an attempt to start driving up my costs? I think most of the documents have already been exchanged - disclosure has been ongoing since 12/09 - so I think we're at the end. I just want to ensure the documents I want are included.

 

Should I apply to the ET for a Case Management Discussion (CMD) to have the Tribunal decide what should go in or not? What would that request look like?

 

Lastly, if I have been sent documents which the solicitor later claimed were covered by privilege, but I feel that these documents demonstrate that the Respondent is intentionally violating the law, how can I get those considered for inclusion by the ET?

 

I would be eternally grateful to anyone out there who could assist this poor woman in distress!!

 

Happy Christmas and Holdiays to you all, and thank you, thank you, thank you for whatever hep you can provide!

 

Ever Yours,

Emma P

[honeybee13]

Hello Emma and welcome to the forum.

 

I don't know a lot about the process, but we have people who do. It depends who's around at the moment. I'm pretty sure that if the respondent or their legal reps don't supply the documents, the ET judge can order them to.

 

The tactics you describe are pretty familiar to us here, which could well mean you have a good case and they're worried.

 

Are they being represented by a firm of specialist solicitors or a national firm offering services to employers? Don't tell us who for now, could get everyone into trouble.

 

My best, HB

[emmap1978]

Hey HB

 

Thanks so much for the swift response! This has really, really been a harrowing experience and I truly appreciate any help you and others can offer!

 

I used to work for a City bank and in the end, for the ET, they actually wound up engaging a national firm who has been running things. But, as I said, I feel because they have been putting the Bundle together, they are unfairly putting me at a disadvantage. Whenever I insist that any documents which implicate their clients be included, I get a multiple email run-around which ultimately results in a "We are of the view it is not relevant." I thought that was what I need to establish in the trial?! Of course, I know that is the last thing they want.

 

I have also before tried to seek an order for specific disclosure from the ET itself, and that was infuriating as well since the Respondent simply claimed that I had not demonstrated relevance, even though I had multiple times!

 

I just don't know where to go from here is all. It is absolutely maddening! Any thoughts would be so greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks so much, Happy Christmas too,

Emma P

[rebel11]

Hi emma

 

You have two choices:-

 

1) Ask the Chairman of the Tribunal permission to include the 'disputed' documents, you can have a section at the back of the 'bundle' headed disputed documents, then you can point out the relevance.

 

or

 

2) Tell them to produce there own 'bundle' and you produce your own. It's not ideal because the panel will have to keep changing 'bundles'. I bet they will then decide to just include them.

[emmap1978]

Hey rebel11!

 

Thanks so much for your help and insights. W.r.t. asking the Tribunal Chairman, would that be a letter to the Regional Secretary? And would I also send the Chairman copies of those documents as well? I think if I asked the solicitor to send them that (in addition to another condescending email), I'd get stiff resistance to that request.

 

I have been trying my best to look online, but have not found any examples or anything so uncertain how that kind or request to the Chairman would be structured. Does it make sense also to request a CMD? I have seen some posters on CAG who went that route too, so perhaps that would be sensible too?

 

Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate your patience and assistance

 

Happy Holidays to you as well!

 

Regards,

emma p

[rebel11]

Hi emma

 

The Respondent seeks permission from the Chairman of Tribunals to include the listed documents which are relevant to the respondents case, as they think they are irrelevant. The defendant is ignoring the respondents request to have these documents included in the ‘bundle’. The documents the Respondent seeks to include are as follows:-

A

B

C

D

　

Make sure you label the documents.

 

Make sure you write the case number.

 

Emma v xxxxxxx Company, etc.

 

You can include the CMD request in the same letter.

[emmap1978]

Hey rebel11

 

Cheers for that, very helpful! So I understand, do I include with that letter paper copies of the documents themselves, properly labeled?

 

Should I also CC a copy to the Respondent's solicitor (like under Rule 11 for the disclosure order request, or a different rule)? And, what happens if the solicitor objects? Will they then send a notice to the Chairman as well objecting?

 

Cheers!

EP

[rebel11]

Hi Emma

 

Yes, I would send copies, or you could just send the letter and see what the Chairman says. You could send there solicitor a copy of the letter.

Just remember to write CC. xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxxx. Let there solicitor Object away, lets deal with it if it happens. I can't see the Chairman objecting.

Don't start worrying about what they do. Do as much research as possible find some case law to back up your claims.

 

Remember the Chairman is there to help you.

[emmap1978]

Hey rebel11

 

Thanks so much for your help, you are tops in my book!

 

I'll get working on a letter and come back to the group if I have any follow up questions. I just want to do a bit more work on the draft before bothering anyone on CAG any further this evening.

 

I see one already over how to include some explosive internal emails they sent me inadvertently (and later tried to invoke privilege on when I drew their attention to their mistake almost a week later).

 

If I posted draft language (scrubbed of specifics, names), would you give a quick perusal?

 

Thanks so much again everyone,

Emm P

[colin813]

Emma phone the tribunal office, inform them you cann`t agree a bundle. The office will give you directions on what to do next

[rebel11]

Hi Emma

 

I think Sidewinder is best to advise. But I will look at it.

[emmap1978]

To the CAG team,

 

@Colin813, thanks for the advice. I'll definitely give them a ring in parallel to working up a contingency request to the Chairman; good to have a few options. Back to honeybee13's point, the ET must think there's something to my case as they've estimated a 4-day hearing, which some associates advise is unusual. So, getting this right is going to be critical to success!

 

@rebel11, I appreciate your offer and will likely take you up on it. However, as a newbie, I'm not certain I understand what "Sidewinder" is. Is that a handle for a CAG user, or something else?

 

Thanks again all,

Emma P

[rebel11]

User.

[emmap1978]

Evening Rebel

 

Thanks, maybe he/she'll see this thread and drop me a line/reply.

 

Regs

Emma P

[colin813]

Emmap,

 

Have you already had a cmd?

 

If so one of the orders would have been to agree a bundle by xxxx date.

 

If you have had an order to agree a bundle and cann`t agree such bundle then you should inform the tribunal office. You can do this by telephone, However the office will need you to confirm your concrerns in writing, you can do this by e-mail.

 

Let the tribunal office give you directions regarding your concerns.

 

At all stages keep the tribunal office informed

[emmap1978]

Hey Colin813

 

At this point I think my plan is to follow your advice with a phone call, simultaneously prepare the letter to the Tribunal Chairman, and then inform the Respondent's rep that I'll be creating a separate Bundle owing to the impasse they have created.

 

No, have not had a CMD yet, and am wondering if I should request one at this stage to discuss? Is there any special format that requesting letter should look like? Perhaps I could do as rebel11 and include the CMD request in the same letter to the Tribunal Chairman asking for the documents to be admitted?

 

Do you (or others) think it makes sense? Appreciate the advice, many thanks. You also don't happen to know anything about legal privilege too, do you?

 

Thanks again,

Emma p 8-)

[colin813]

Legal privilige is between the solicitor and their client basically this means all communications between solicitor and client will remain between parties unless the client decides otherwise.

 

Have you any legal advise?

 

If you are not in a union maybe check your home insurance or car insurance for cover relating to legal expenses.

 

Have you spoken to your local cab ?

 

If you havent legal cover it would be advisable to contact your local cab

[emmap1978]

@Colin813

 

Thanks again for the note. Don't stay up late on my account!

 

I did meet with a no win, no fee solicitor, but I don't think he was taking me very seriously. My insurance doesn't cover the legal advise question though, and I don't really have the extra quid to invest, so I'd prefer to try my best.

 

Thanks for the privilege background. So, what f the solicitor sent me a raft of internal communications between the Respondent's HR and legal departments that demonstrate they knew they had broken the law, and only after I questioned them on this, he invoked privilege. Has privilege been lost? As I understand, privilege is inviolate but does not cover communications which demonstrate knowledge of illegal activities.

 

Could I take those documents to the Tribunal and ask them to weigh in on whether privilege has been lost? Especially since, in the meantime, the Respondent has made untrue statements to the ET itself and the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO), and those emails demonstrate they knew they are being misleading.

 

Many thanks, and good evening,

Emma P

[honeybee13]

Hello again. Some people on CAG have found help at a local Community Law Centre. It could be a bit of a long shot, but possibly worth a try.

 

HB

[emmap1978]

Hey HB

 

Thanks for the note. I think I had called them once early last year, but it hadn't looked promising. I should follow-up with them again anyway. I hope to have some time today to work on the Tribunal Chairman letter.

 

Everyone on CAG has been so helpful so far, I really appreciate it

 

Thanks again all!

EmmaP

[greendollar]

Hi Emma ,

 

Unfotunately conduct like this by respondants solicitors seems to be the norm .

 

I've had exactly the same problem , in the end I took 6 copies of the evidence/documents to the Tribunal with me as my ex-employers solicitors saw fit to omit ALL the documents essential to my case . They also saw fit to hand the bundle over on the Fri , the Tribunal being on the Mon.

 

The judge was absolutely livid by their conduct , the Tribunal was abandoned and a CMD ordered where the judge then ordered them to include the evidence .

When the next bundle turned up they still attempted to leave my evidence out stating it had no relevance to the case ( it seems that they think they are the ones to decide what goes in the bundle and the 'agreed' part is a concept they don't understand) , they've lied to the Tribunal about our attempting to 'ambush' them with 'new' evidence saying we tried to have it included by 'stealth' claiming that the first time they had seen the evidence was when we presented it at the Tribunal but correspondance shows that they've had the documents in their possession for over 2 yrs .

They will try every trick in the book to omit evidence that will paint them in a bad light .

Write to the Tribunal requesting a CMD stating your concerns about their conduct , my ex-employers soilictors are aggressive and just downright rude when we have to deal with them.

GOOD LUCK

Edited December 23, 2010 by greendollar

[Roblynmouth]

Emma

 

Write to their solicitors and tell them that it is not up to them to determine what documents are significant or appropriate, that is your Job.

Have to say try and go with the one bundle it makes life more helpful for the Judge etc.

Next write to Tribunal Chairman copy to their Solicitors and point out that failure to supply the documentation you have asked for is in danger of prejudicing the case agasint you, and that you will file an appeal for non disclosure.

That way you can still proceed even if the Tribunal Chairman goes ahead with the case and you loose [making sure that you tell him this at the opening of the case if you stil havent got disclosure] Also ask the Tribunal Chair to stop the hearing so that you can get the Appeal Courts opinion on the non disclosure.

However there are time limits and you must get [you have to ask for this from the tribunal chair at the end of the case] a written submission of the case before you can appeal

Like an ET Employment case, Appeal Cases are on a own costs bases but don't be afraid to ask for a costs order if the case swings your way

[emmap1978]

Hey greendollar and Roblynmouth -

 

Happy Christmas! And thanks for speaking up, you've given me some good suggestions.

 

I think my strategy is going to be fourfold now, including contacting the Solicitor, the Tribunal Chairman, the CAB, and then trying to move this up the pitch.

 

I will likely post by Draft letter for the Chairman here as I mentioned before, so I hope you might provide comments if you have the time.

 

Really, I felt quite lost and helpless recently, feeling at the mercy of the Respondent and their solicitors. You have all given me renewed hope in this matter, and I'm really in your debt. Thank you so very much.

 

I wish you all the Happiest of New Years and please keep the recommendations coming.

 

Regards

Emma P

[greendollar]

Hi Emma ,

 

Remember that if they have to resort to underhand tactics its most likely that you've got them rattled and using these sort of tactics will only wind the Tribunal judges up .

And don't be put off by the usual threats of costs , as long as you conduct yourself properly and answer queries from the tribunal and respondant promptly then there's pretty much zero chance of costs being awarded against you . Even if you do lose .

It was certainly an eye-opener for me , the lies and threats have been going on for the best part of 2 and a half years now , this from a multi-national company that reckon my claim has no merit whatsoever . Funny how they seem so reluctant to actually defend my claim at the Tribunal . Don't be bullied out of your day infront of the judges , I turned down a measly out of court settlement and it was worth every penny to watch them get what can only be described as an embarrassing dressing down by the judge and walk away with their tails between their legs .

Hopefully , come Feb they'll feel the wrath of the judges once more .

 

Happy New Year

[emmap1978]

Hey greendollar -

 

Wow, you really have been through the mill with your case! I just cannot believe how much money these companies will waste spinning in the wind instead of simply coming to the table to finish it. Talk about reputational risk! Plus, the bank I worked for - their solicitor is so, so, so condescending to me. I do not know if it is because I'm a woman, because he thinks my case has no merits, or because he thinks I lack the willpower.

 

However, even if it is all of them, he's in for a rude awakening!! I know in my heart that my case is good ...

 

I appreciate your motivational comments. It strikes me that many people on this board have been down this road before, so I suspect little about my case comes as a surprise, and I appreciate the good advice on tactics

 

W.r.t. the CMD, is that something the Tribunal requested, or (as another poster suggested) did you request it yourself in writing to the Tribunal Chairman? And if so, did it take long to hold that discussion?

 

The weather in London has really wreaked havoc with the Tribunal schedule, so I expect more delays on my case (but only running 1.5 years now, not 2.5 like you!).

 

Out of curiosity, how long was your trial originally scheduled to be? And, about how long was your Bundle? I feel like the attorney is intentionally taking messages (and copies of messages, and copies of entire email chains) and including them all on purpose to make the Bundle look overly onerous and unappealing to the Tribunal.

 

Thanks for all the advice, cheers!

Emma p