Allied International Credit - Help me please.

[Trevs47]

Twenty years ago, my wife and myself took out a joint business loan with Natwest Bank. The business suffered badly and the bank offered us another loan to pay off the overdraft. Unfortunately we couldn't afford the monthly payments. The business closed and I continued (up until this day) working from home. In 1995 I got divorced and for some reason unknown to me, the bank chased me for the payments. They would not tell me why my ex wife was suddenly exempt! Data protection act! About two weeks ago, the debt was passed on to Allied International Credit in Glasgow. I have had a few phone calls of a threatening nature demanding the amount payable. Last week they offered me three options to pay. I asked them to put it in writing. They refused saying that they didn't need to as I had written down what they had said.

I then sent them a letter requesting a CCA. I enclosed a £1 postal order. The letter was typed, so there was my name on the bottom, but no signature. The letter was received by them on the 10th October. I had it tracked.

Copy of the letter :

Allied International Credit (UK) Limited

Anderston House

389 Argyle Street

Glasgow

G2 8LR Thursday 9th December 2010

Re : Account / Reference No : ?????

Dear Sirs,

With reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement.

I understand that under the consumer credit act 1974 (sections 77-79) I am entitled to receive a copy of my credit agreement on request.

I enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the consumer credit act.

I understand that a copy of my credit agreement should be supplied within twelve working days.

I understand that under the consumer credit act creditors are unable to force an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the act.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

This morning ( 20th Dec ) I received a reply. They also returned my postal order.

Their reply :

Re : Natwest Bank Plc –

Allied International Credit (UK) Ltd –

Thank you for your recent letter.

As we are currently acting on behalf of Natwest Bank Plc in respect of recovering the outstanding debt on this account, we are unable to comply with your request. Such requests need to be addressed to the legal owners of the product, which in this case is Natwest Bank Plc.

To enable them to provide the documentation you have requested you should contact the bank directly by writing to :

The Royal Bank of Scotland

Kendal Court

Ironmasters Way

Telford

TF3 4DT

You will also need to provide them with the sort code and account number and enclose a piece of photographic identity with an original signature. Please ensure this is accompanied by a payment of £1.00 (cheque or postal order made payable to the client name as stated above)

Yours sincerely

A.Todd

Allied International Credit

Tel : 0141 226 3111

I need some advice as to what to do next. I didn't know that Natwest and RBS were related.

Any help would be appreciated.

[bigshoes...bigsocks]

You don't need to include any photgraphic documentation or anything with your signature on it. They should have passed the CCA request on but it just means you have to instead; buys you an extra few days if anything.

[Stigman]

They should have passed the CCA request on but it just means you have to instead

 

Wrong, s175 of the 1974CCA is very clear and passes a duty upon Allied Int. to pass this on, send Allied the in-dispute letter and with-hold payments until they comply, send via recorded delivery, do not sign your name.

 

Stigman

[UnitedFront]

Hang on are you saying the last time you made a payment was 1995??

[harrassed senior]

Has there been a clear period of 6 years (5 in Scotland) when no payments or acknowledgements of the alleged debt have been made? Have you checked your credit files too!

[Trevs47]

I have been paying regular monthly payments to Natwest up until two weeks ago when I received a letter saying the debt had been passed on to AIC. I haven't missed any payments, although Natwest decided that my monthly payment of £25 wasn't enough. Both my name and my ex wifes name was on the account even though she seems to be exempt. Now AIC tell me that the account is in my name only. I asked Natwest why they have passed the debt on and they informed me that they have no records of the account and that I must talk to AIC. AIC phoned me again today demanding money. I told them that I hadn't received a copy of the agreement yet and that anything they had to say is to be put in writing. They asked why? They then said that the copy of the agreement was sent to me on the 10th December. That is the same day that they received my letter asking for the document! Am I right to refuse payment until I get a copy of the original agreement? I am told that they have 12 working days to produce this.

[Stigman]

Hi,

Well done for asking for everything in writing, next time AIC ring you, just say everything in writing only and hang up.

If you sent the CCA request by recorded delivery, then 12 working days is correct, just send the in-dispute letter, with-hold any payments until AIC comply.

Have a check with your credit record, Natwest would have already put a default on your credit record, just make sure that AIC have not duplicated the debt and added another.

If Natwest said they have no record of the account, you need to send Natwest a SAR to see what is going on, costs £10 and can take upto 40 calender days, all info that Natwest have on you will then be sent so you can see what is going on.

Best Wishes

Stigman

[Trevs47]

Thanks for your advice. The original loan was taken out in 1981. Almost 30 years ago. Is there a sort of template for an "in dispute" letter? Also, I'm told that if I don't receive a copy of the CCA within the time specified, I can dispute the debt.

[Tingy]

I know it's a bit late, but this is S175 of CCA 1974:

 

Duty of persons deemed to be agents. E+W+S+N.I.

 

Where under this Act a person is deemed to receive a notice or payment as agent of the creditor or owner under a regulated agreement, he shall be deemed to be under a contractual duty to the creditor or owner to transmit the notice, or remit the payment, to him forthwith.

[Stigman]

Hi Trevs,

You can dispute the debt now because AIC have failed in their right to pass your CCA request on.

As posted above, you can legally with-hold payments until AIC comply, don't worry about the threats of court this, CCJ that, all empty threats, don't talk to them on the phone, they will say anything to get you to pay, the telephone debt advisors that you speak to are mainly single mums and ex-burger flippers all out for a commission from you, nothing else, not to help you but to help their wage packet, you are in control, not AIC!

After 30 years no paperwork will have survived so don't worry about recieving anything.

In-dispute letter copied and pasted below...

 

Account/Reference no:-

Dear Sir or Madam,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Thank you for your letter dated INSERT DATE, the contents of which are noted.

Your attention is drawn to the fact that this account is subject to a serious dispute.

On INSERT DATE OF CCA REQUEST SENT I requested that INSERT

COMPANY/DCA NAME supply me a copy of the credit agreement covering this

account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78. To date INSERT

COMPANY/DCA NAME have failed to comply with my request. Without production

of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt

to INSERT NAME OF ORIGINAL CREDITOR, nor does it give me any chance to

evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974.

For the avoidance of any doubt I have included section 78(1) and 78(6) of the

Consumer Credit Act 1974, which states…

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the

prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and

payment of a fee of [£1], shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if

any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or

on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is

practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the

creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw

further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to

the creditor.

(6) If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement;

Clearly as no agreement was supplied on request, this in no way complies with the

requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and I now draw your attention to

section 78 subsection 6 which states If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply

with subsection (1) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the

agreement;

Clearly this is a situation as described in S.78(6) Consumer Credit Act 1974 and the

debt is unenforceable at this time. In addition, I draw your attention to section 127 (3)

Consumer Credit Act 1974 which states

127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section

61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or

not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself

containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer

(whether or not in the prescribed manner).

This is backed by case law from the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary (House of Lords) the

highest court in the land. Your attention is drawn to the authority of the House of

Lords in Wilson-v- FCT [2003] All ER (D) 187 (Jul) which confirms that where a

document does not contain the required terms under the consumer credit act 1974 the

agreement cannot be enforced.

To clarify S.61(1) states

(1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and

conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both

by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible

In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in

schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI

1983/1553) and are inter alia: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which

it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any

interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the

debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments,

which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

1.Number of repayments;

2.Amount of repayments;

3.Frequency and timing of repayments;

4.Dates of repayments;

5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and

any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

Therefore based upon the Consumer Credit Act 1974 this debt as it stands is

unenforceable and should this proceed to litigation, a court is precluded from making

an enforcement order under section 127(3) unless a true copy of the signed agreement

is produced..

At the point where this account entered into the default situation as described in s78

(6) CCA 1974 no other charges are allowed to be added until such time as INSERT

COMPANY/DCA NAME become compliant with my request. As INSERT

COMPANY/DCA NAME are still not in compliance with my request I insist that the

following takes place with immediate effect

All entries which refer to missed payments be removed from our credit files.

All collection activities cease with immediate effect.

In addition, I draw your attention to the Office of Fair Trading’s Guidance on Debt

Collection...

The OFT guidance which was issued July 2003 (updated December 2006) relating to

debt collections and what the OFT considers unfair, I have enclosed an excerpt from

page 5 of the guidance which states...

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

h. Ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and

continuing to make unjustified demands for payment

What I Require.

I require that you send me a true copy of the executed agreement as required by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation

because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

I require that you comply with my request within 7 days of the date of this letter. I will

not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the requested

documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74 or clarification that such agreement

doesn’t exist. I am advised that should you persist in pursuing this debt ignoring the

above information you will be in breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970

section 40 as well

No other correspondence will be accepted

Should you attempt litigation it will be vigorously defended and the failure to supply

documentation under the CCA 1974 is a complete defence to any legal action and

your actions will be vexatious and unlawful

I trust this out lines the situation

Yours Faithfully

Print Your Name (DO NOT SIGN)

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

Best Wishes

Stigman

[Trevs47]

Thank you for quick reply. You are very well informed. Should I send this now or wait until the end of the 12 working days.

[Jasper1965]

Hi Trevs,

 

After 30 years no paperwork will have survived so don't worry about recieving anything.

 

Although it doesn't detract from the fact AIC have failed and the a/c is lawfully in dispute you should be aware of the following:

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) (Amendment) Regulations 1983

 

9 Copies of old agreements and security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been lost etc

Any copy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a security instrument relating to security provided

before that date which is given to the debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that date may

comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement or security as the case may be insofar as they

are known to the creditor or owner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or

owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof.

 

 

And DONT SPEAK TO THEM ON THE PHONE!! THEY WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING!!!!!!

[Stigman]

Should I send this now or wait until the end of the 12 working days.

 

Send the in-dispute letter now, AIC have failed so if you act quickly you can give AIC a nice christmas prezzie - a letter telling them they are getting no money from you

 

Don't forget, send via recorded delivery, print your name only and do not sign.

 

Best Wishes

Stigman

[Trevs47]

In-dispute letter sent today. Express delivery which means that it has to be signed for and I also have it tracked

I must admit that I feel more confident now with regards to handling this situation. I got another phone call today from AIC. A recorded message instructing me to phone immediately.

Needless to say, I ignored the call.

I will keep you posted.

[Trevs47]

In dispute letter was received by AIC on the 23rd December 2010

Today (30th Dec) I received the following letter,conveniently dated 20th Dec.

 

 

Allied International Credit

20 December 2010

 

 

CLIENT NAME : NATWEST BANK PLC

OUTSTANDING BALANCE : £10,832 .79

As your above account remains unpaid, Allied International Credit (UK) Limited (AIC) are currently reviewing your file within our Collection Department to consider if further action is warranted.

The immediate options available to you are as follows :

1. Make a one off full and final settlement payment to your account. Please call the number below to discuss the discount options. Further to your submission of the agreed payment,

neither we nor our client will pursue you further in regards to the above account.

2. Submit a down payment of £2,708.20 (25% of the balance), then repay the remaining balance at £169.26 per month (remaining balance paid over 48 months)

3. Repay the balance at an amount of £300.91 per month (remaining balance paid over 36 months)

Please note any subsequent late payment or default of any of the above options may result in any settlement or repayment offer being withdrawn.

Alternatively if you are unable to propose any of the above options please call to discuss your account.

Failure to contact us immediately on the telephone number below to discuss your account may result in a recommendation to our Client that proceedings should be initiated against you.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. R Watson

Debt Collection Department

Tel : 0141 2283008

What should I do next? Should I ignore this letter? I received a recorded telephone call today instructing me to call them urgently.

I ignored the call.

[bigshoes...bigsocks]

Lots of ifs and maybe's in that letter so I'd ignore - especially so as you've sent the in dispute letter. Await their response to the in dispute letter and you can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they crossed in the post. And obviously don't talk to them on the phone!

[Trevs47]

The recorded messages are still coming. Every two or three days I get a phone call - a recorded message saying "please call Mr watson immediately as a matter of urgency". I ignore the calls and just put the phone down. Is this harrassment? Can I put a stop to it or do I just continue to ignore them until they get the message?

[Bazooka Boo]

You could send them this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/content.php?493-Harassment-by-telephone-response-letter

 

You MUST keep a diary of events, this will enable you to report them to the Police for the criminal offence of harassment.

Make a formal complaint about these children to the OFT&TS via http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/contact

Also OfCom for offences under the communications act; http://www.ofcom.org.uk/contact-us/

 

127Improper use of public electronic communications network E+W+S+N.I.

 

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he—

 

(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network a message or other matter that is grossly offensive or of an indecent, obscene or menacing character; or

 

(b)causes any such message or matter to be so sent.

 

(2)A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—

 

(a)sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false,

 

(b)causes such a message to be sent; or

 

©persistently makes use of a public electronic communications network.

 

(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or to both.

 

(4)Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to anything done in the course of providing a programme service (within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (c. 42)).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127

 

40 Punishment for unlawful harassment of debtors. E+W

 

(1)A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he—

 

(a)harasses the other with demands for payment which, in respect of their frequency or the manner or occasion of making any such demand, or of any threat or publicity by which any demand is accompanied, are calculated to subject him or members of his family or household to alarm, distress or humiliation;

 

(b)falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

 

©falsely represents himself to be authorised in some official capacity to claim or enforce payment; or

 

(d)utters a document falsely represented by him to have some official character or purporting to have some official character which he knows it has not.

 

(2)A person may be guilty of an offence by virtue of subsection (1)(a) above if he concerts with others in the taking of such action as is described in that paragraph, notwithstanding that his own course of conduct does not by itself amount to harassment.

 

(3)Subsection (1)(a) above does not apply to anything done by a person which is reasonable (and otherwise permissible in law) for the purpose—

 

(a)of securing the discharge of an obligation due, or believed by him to be due, to himself or to persons for whom he acts, or protecting himself or them from future loss; or

 

(b)of the enforcement of any liability by legal process.

 

(4)A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine of not more than £100, and on a second or subsequent conviction to a fine of not more than £400.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/31/section/40

 

1 Prohibition of harassment. E+W

 

(1)A person must not pursue a course of conduct—

 

(a)which amounts to harassment of another, and

 

(b)which he knows or ought to know amounts to harassment of the other.

 

(2)For the purposes of this section, the person whose course of conduct is in question ought to know that it amounts to harassment of another if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.

 

(3)Subsection (1) does not apply to a course of conduct if the person who pursued it shows—

 

(a)that it was pursued for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime,

 

(b)that it was pursued under any enactment or rule of law or to comply with any condition or requirement imposed by any person under any enactment, or

 

©that in the particular circumstances the pursuit of the course of conduct was reasonable.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1997/40/section/1

[haybuck]

Hi Trev. I dealt with these people last year. Luckily, eventually, I was able to settle with them but the stress they caused me was immense, which is their method of operation. I still have a lot of outstanding debt but all of the others are quite reasonable and understanding. This lot bully and harass to get their filthy money and I don't know how they sleep at night. But, despite the threats and intimidation they will always do a deal. It seems though that they haven't got much of a case so stick to your guns and follow the good advice on here. Chin Up and Don't Let The B******s Grind You Down.

They are the Financial equivalents of wheel clampers.

[Trevs47]

Well . . . . . it has been some time now and AIC have left me alone. Until this morning. I got a phone call around 8.00am. My answer phone kicked in and I received a message from Wescott debt collection asking me to contact them. I haven't called them but can only assume that AIC has passed the debt on to them. Can anyone give me any advice as to my next course of action. They will probably try to make contact soon. Do I have to go through the same course of action as I did with AIC?

Do I need to send these people a CCA request also? How long can this procedure of passing the account from one collector to another? Any help will be appreciated please.

[Bazooka Boo]

Ignore wetcloths, again keep a record of their phonecalls and report them to the Police for harassment.

 

In the meantime, make a formal complaint to the OFT&TS via http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Dl1/Directories/UsefulContactsByCategory/Governmentcitizensandrightscontacts/DG_195948

And the FOS http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumer/complaints.htm about AIC and their blatant disregard and ignorance of debt collection guidelines and the law.

 

Report wetcloths at the same time, IMO it is pointless, costly and a waste of your time, sending wetcloths anything, they will simply continue to ignore your letters and continue to pursue you for something you don't owe.

 

There is NO requirement on your part to send another CCA request, AIC failed to supply and have palmed this off to another low life further down the barrel.

[Trevs47]

Wescott phoned today. I picked up the phone. They asked if they was speaking to me and I said yes. They said that they needed to identify me to them so I said "hang on a mo and I will look in the mirror" I then said "yes, that's me". They wasn't amused. The guy then asked me my date of birth and I told him that I was not going to give any personal information over the phone. He said that the information he had for me was important. I again told him that I was not prepared to give any personal information to him. He hung up. What is their next course of action? Will they send letters or will they turn up at my house? After following the advice on here and dealing with AIC I feel confident but a little uncertain as to what will happen next.

[Bazooka Boo]

Children shouldn't be allowed to talk to strangers!

 

That said, I strongly doubt their mummies & daddies will allow them out of the house to knock on a strangers door...

 

File that complaint with the OFT&TS, and revert back to "Ignore"

[Trevs47]

They are getting stroppy now. They phone every day and are sending letters threatening doorstop visits and court action. The letter I received today states that they are contacting natwest bank to verify that the debt is owed by me. What should I do now?

[Bazooka Boo]

How far have you got regards your complaints about them to the OFT&TS?