NCP "fines"

[Crowny]

Firstly, id like to say thanks for all the really useful help and advice posted on this site and the time taken by the members to help each other out

 

Ive read with great interest today the situation with regards to NCP issuing "fines" that are really nothing more than unenforcable invoices

 

If I may, could I please ask one question, If theses notices are completely without merit and unenforcable in a court, then why does anyone even bother to purchase a ticket ? Theoretically, could you park in an NCP station car park each day and simply ignore every letter received ? (i know thats 2 questions !)

 

Apologies if this has been covered, i did search the forums but couldnt locate a similar thread

 

Thanks

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

If it is a private pay and display car park, not to pay is technically theft and akin to shoplifting.

[buzby]

NCP are also acting on behalf of Councils (and DVLA) who outsource their carking and enforcement, so it is vitally important that you read all tickets, notices etc to ensure which type of transgression you are being pursued for. Also, for Railway Stations, there are complications depending on whether these are being pursued as a PPC or under Railway Byelaws - again, it is important to find out.

[steveod]

If it is a private pay and display car park, not to pay is technically theft and akin to shoplifting.

 

 

Rubbish. Shoplifting is a crime and enforced by statute. Not paying in a PRIVATE pay and display is a unilateral contract which can only be valid if all the elements of a contract are there - offer, acceptance, meeting of minds. If you don't accept the pathetic and ridiculous terms and conditions - especially in shopping centre car parks such as ASDA where there is already a contract in force by you going to shop there adn they already making money out of you - what gives them the right to unilateraly make further demands for payment.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Rubbish. Shoplifting is a crime and enforced by statute. Not paying in a PRIVATE pay and display is a unilateral contract which can only be valid if all the elements of a contract are there - offer, acceptance, meeting of minds. If you don't accept the pathetic and ridiculous terms and conditions - especially in shopping centre car parks such as ASDA where there is already a contract in force by you going to shop there adn they already making money out of you - what gives them the right to unilateraly make further demands for payment.

 

I am afraid you need to think a bit more carefully.

 

Firstly there is no statute that outlaws shoplifting per se. There is one that outlaws theft. (In fact more than one but that does not matter for now.)

 

If you procure parking services in the knowledge that payment is due and have no intention of paying than that is theft, plain and simple. It is very much analagous to shoplifting or doing a runner from a restaraunt.

 

What I am not saying is that it is theft to refuse to pay a pseudo PCN issued by those who operate the car-parks. Perhaps you thought I was.

[DBC]

There are two separate elements to parking on private land. The first part is paying to park on the land, usually via a P&D machine. That's completely above-board and motorists should pay . The second part is the unenforceable "penalties" which the PPC will demand if you break any of their "rules". This element would be deemed an unfair penalty that bears no relationship to the actual loss suffered by the land-owner. That part can safely be ignored.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

There are two separate elements to parking on private land. The first part is paying to park on the land, usually via a P&D machine. That's completely above-board and motorists should pay . The second part is the unenforceable "penalties" which the PPC will demand if you break any of their "rules". This element would be deemed an unfair penalty that bears no relationship to the actual loss suffered by the land-owner. That part can safely be ignored.

 

Quite so.

[brassnecked]

There are two separate elements to parking on private land. The first part is paying to park on the land, usually via a P&D machine. That's completely above-board and motorists should pay . The second part is the unenforceable "penalties" which the PPC will demand if you break any of their "rules". This element would be deemed an unfair penalty that bears no relationship to the actual loss suffered by the land-owner. That part can safely be ignored.

 

Exactly, if the contractural loss is a portion of an hour say 50 pence, then a £75 penalty on private car parks is excessive.

[steveod]

Quite so.

 

you are partially correct in this part of your quote:

"The first part is paying to park on the land, usually via a P&D machine. That's completely above-board and motorists should pay" .

 

This is only true where all elements necessary for the formation of a contract are there. Namely, the terms and conditions MUST be clearly displayed in a position that is available for the offeree to see prior to "accepting the contract" - ie the T&Cs cannot be located on a small board far at the back of the parking area. The T&Cs must also meet ALL conditions of contract covered by the common law as well as statute otherwise there is NO CONTRACT! In most P&D car parks this is not the case and that is why we are where we are.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

you are partially correct in this part of your quote:

"The first part is paying to park on the land, usually via a P&D machine. That's completely above-board and motorists should pay" .

 

This is only true where all elements necessary for the formation of a contract are there. Namely, the terms and conditions MUST be clearly displayed in a position that is available for the offeree to see prior to "accepting the contract" - ie the T&Cs cannot be located on a small board far at the back of the parking area. The T&Cs must also meet ALL conditions of contract covered by the common law as well as statute otherwise there is NO CONTRACT! In most P&D car parks this is not the case and that is why we are where we are.

 

I think you are more likely to find that if there are unlawful components of the contract then those unlawful components cannot be enforced not that the contract is void.

[steveod]

I think you are more likely to find that if there are unlawful components of the contract then those unlawful components cannot be enforced not that the contract is void.

 

That is only if the components are minor points, then they can be struck out, but the majority of these private PPC are "levied" where there is blatant infringing of basic contract law, the most important of these being charging a penalty - i.e. trying to charge £150 for a £1 parking charge - ridiculous and IMO basically theft.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

If your objective is to have the contract found void then I reckon that the best route is to argue on the basis of mistake as to identity of the parties to the contract.

If the contract contains an unlawful penalty clause I maintain that clause will not be enforced rather than the contract being declared void.

[Al27]

Practically speaking, in the real world, it is possible to park for free on very many private car parks with no comeback.

 

Whether you decide to do so is entirely up to you and your conscience.

[sploits]

Practically speaking, in the real world, it is possible to park for free on very many private car parks with no comeback.

 

Whether you decide to do so is entirely up to you and your conscience.

 

To hold my hand up I no longer pay for APCOA parking within my local town (shoot me down if you want). I dont park often in my local town but when I do I park without paying within an APCOA carpark because of the harrassment and lies they gave me when they ticketed me for parking on a piece of private land that had NO terms and conditions and no P&D machines (although they do have an additional 4 or 5 P&D carparks). I always paid the £1 they wanted for an hour but when they hit me with a crazy charge and lied to me when I asked them to stop writing it out while I had been to work to drop my DJ gear off then sod them. Maybe it is morally wrong not to pay while I park on a carpark that they own / run / look after but like I said the way they treated me was disgusting and seriously p*ssed me off (my thread can be located here http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?151005-CPN-From-APCOA)

Yes I have recieved a few unenforcable fines from parking and not having a ticket but after the rubbish I get from Roxburghe and Graham White it all goes away.

 

Like I said shoot me down if you want

 

Any other carparks that are P&D I pay the going hourly rate with no problems.

[Al27]

It's a pound to park in Morrisons in Eccles and you get it back when you shop.

 

Thing is, the Euro Car Parks woman isn't often on and when I shop at 5.30pm when the car park is half empty, what's the point? Especially when I usually pay by card and have no change.

 

Just been to Greggs for a sandwich and the woman was there this lunchtime. She never gives me an unenforceable invoice though! I was quite looking forward to having a word when I came back with my sandwich.

She's fairly useless, but I have seen a ticketed car before and left a note educating the driver.

[sploits]

I have seen a ticketed car before and left a note educating the driver.

 

Best way al27, educate the world about these scamsters and their dodgy setups

 

Its free in our local Morrisons but we still have a Euro Car Parks guy wandering around ticketing people. Just like you I try my best to educate everyone who has received a ticket

[steveod]

Its all a big rip-off anyway. Go anywhere else in the world and you can basically park for free except in the high streets of major cities. Stuff em all.