Rae's ESA...

[osdset]

DWATO won't admit it obviously but I have seen it reported on various sites that the expected fail rate for WCA's is around two thirds (66%) of all claims, I would hazard a guess that the rate is more like 75% judging by the amount of appeals outstanding.

 

It's very convenient of course for the DWP to state that their DM's base decisions on the 'professional' assessments delivered by ATOS, who in turn state that they are merely carrying out the mandate from the DWP, so it can be argued that ATOS are the fall guy's here but that's partly what they are getting paid for, to take the flak and divert attention away from the DWP.

 

The buck must stop at the DWP as they are the client and ATOS are merely the lick-spittle lackeys.

[debt4get]

its a bit like going round and round a roundabout....we are only implementing govt guidelines( DWP)......, we are only implementing DWP guidelines (ATOS).....and round and round and round and round......pass the buck...meanwhile the money keeps flowing towards ATOS...they take the flak then hide behind the 'guidelines issued'

[osdset]

yeah you do...on the ATOS report at the bottom of the last page in glorious dayglo is the name and qualifications of the HCP....so you need to get hold of the report if want to complain

I did a bit of sleuthing around about the W4NK3R ( sorry HCP) that did my assessment, apparently he likes to play chess competitively usually with a bunch of pals in a range of exotic locations, he is obviously not from our fair Isle, my guess would be Lagos, and he lives in a leafy street in north west London, I even have the number plate of the car he drives.

 

All this info by the way was openly available on the internet, I just had to dig a bit.

 

It's fortuitous that I am not a grudge bearing, psychopathic stalker isn't it? Otherwise chummy might be in a spot of bother.

[debt4get]

it certainly makes you feel that way.....

[worried33]

Ultimately its the DWP who are to blame.

 

When grayling was question at that debate few weeks ago, he didnt condemn ATOS instead he said a speech on how its right to make ill people to look for work as its goofd for them, this backs up what ATOS are saying in that are simply doing what they told. It appears to me the DWP have told ATOS in private to pretty much kick of everyone they can get away with, let a certian % pass so it all looks legit and noone will ever find out this info as its commercial confidentiality. In public the DWP distance themselves so ATOS are the fall guys. Of course all the ATOS doctors who lie are in breach of medical practices.

[debt4get]

well he is right in a certain way...it is good for 'THEM' another supply of cheap labour, less welfare payments, workers rights and disability rights being eroded or completely ignored...i remember another speech by this guy about how 'it isnt right that the sick, ill and disabled are being left on benefits for sometimes years on end'

[estellyn]

its a bit like going round and round a roundabout....we are only implementing govt guidelines( DWP)......, we are only implementing DWP guidelines (ATOS).....and round and round and round and round......pass the buck...meanwhile the money keeps flowing towards ATOS...they take the flak then hide behind the 'guidelines issued'

 

well, no, they're not following guidelines issued. The regulations are quite clear about what 'lack of abilities' scores what points. atos ensure that as much as possible the right questions are not asked in the assessment. They ensure that they don't get enough information to be able to award points in many cases. This is a deliberate design of the assessment process. So for many people, the only information that the DWP decision maker gets is the ATOS report, because most people write very little on their ESA50 and provide no other evidence - they assume its a fair process.

 

But in cases where other evidence has been provided, and the ESA50 has been completed comprehensively, and the ATOS report is contradictory to the information on the eSA50 and other evidence - in most cases the DWP decision maker 'rubber stamps' the ATOS report.

 

ATOS as a company are not just deciding off their own backs to mis-assess people, and the DWP decision makers aren't deciding off their own backs to ignore other evidence. The government have, in my opinion, made it very clear to both ATOS and DWP what result they want - lots less ESA and DLA awards. Otherwise how could there be a maximum percentage of claimants that are allowed to be allocated to the support group before action is taken against an assessor? How could assessor's decisions on points scores be overruled by supervisors who never met the claimant - this is not allowing professionals to use clinical judgement.

 

I suspect that ATOS contract has performance indicators that have to be met, and these are part of the non disclosed part of the contract with the government, and that the DWP decision makers are under orders to rubber stamp ATOS findings wherever possible. Professor Harrington, I believe, wanted to make the system fairer and had become very disillusioned with the process, his reports were becoming increasingly difficult for the government - which is why he was made to resign. I expect the new guy to be more 'pro' the government line.

 

So in summary, the government are ultimately at fault, but there are lots in ATOS and DWP also to blame for 'only following orders'.

[osdset]

Yep, Harrington fell on his sword because he was 'veering away from the path'. I note that Grayling's replacement Mark Hoban is a carbon copy of old 'tough love' in all but looks, he is trotting out all the usual tripe, dodging questions and obfuscating statements, I wonder how many more clones IDS has tucked away?

[worried33]

I agree with you estellyn, whatever happening isnt down to rogue staff, they will be doing what they told to do. Its not a case of an occasional bad decision, this is a widespread issue. This has also been carefully setup, ATOS immune to FOI, DWP say they going on what they been advised by ATOS, ATOS saying they doing what they been told to do and that they dont make the decisions, so they always divert blame when directly questioned. What ATOS have actually been told to do seems to never be told to the public when ministers are questioned, instead we gate vague things like "I believe work is good for everyone" excusing whats going on. People been kicked off are probably not even in work, they simply off the system or maybe on JSA.

[estellyn]

I agree with you estellyn, whatever happening isnt down to rogue staff, they will be doing what they told to do. Its not a case of an occasional bad decision, this is a widespread issue. This has also been carefully setup, ATOS immune to FOI, DWP say they going on what they been advised by ATOS, ATOS saying they doing what they been told to do and that they dont make the decisions, so they always divert blame when directly questioned. What ATOS have actually been told to do seems to never be told to the public when ministers are questioned, instead we gate vague things like "I believe work is good for everyone" excusing whats going on. People been kicked off are probably not even in work, they simply off the system or maybe on JSA.

 

Yes, this whole Tory 'we know what's best for the little people' spiel, really makes me sick. Their attitude that poor people have just been misled by this whole benefits system, and they don't know any better - they'll just take money if its available. Poor people are lazy and lack motivation, and need to be forced to do things for their own good. Sounds perilously similar to what used to be said about slaves.

[Zonker]

Be honest and open and act with integrity

• Act without delay if you have good reason to believe that you or a colleague may be putting patients at risk
  
• Never discriminate unfairly against patients or colleagues
  
• Never abuse your patients' trust in you or the public's trust in the profession.
  

Copied and pasted from GMC webiste. Specifically 'public's trust in the profession' is interesting, no qualifiers so it could possibly be argued that by giving an intentional misleading score they themselves are acting without integrity and certainly by the amount of attention atos/dwp are getting they certainly bringing the publics trust of the proffesion into doubt.

 

Apologies if that sounds a load of tripe.

[debt4get]

the problem as shown by the panaroma programme, they have 'doctors' working and indeed even running the training of ATOS employees whose qualifications are not even recognised in this country. my HCP that denied me my benefit was a nurse..in her medical opinion, not only could i use a non existent wheelchair, but that i would be fit enough for work in 12 weeks.....maybe she should be promoted to 'consultant' level with such wonderful diagnostic skills

[Nystagmite]

.i remember another speech by this guy about how 'it isnt right that the sick, ill and disabled are being left on benefits for sometimes years on end'

 

I can sort of see his point. But where are these jobs that these people can do? I mean, some might be able to work; but only on their terms. I don't know about anyone else; but I wouldn't want to employ someone who constantly needs time off because they're too sick, fatigued, etc. to come into work.

[debt4get]

i think that is exactly the point, we all know that this is simply to deny people any support at all....reducing payments to poverty levels, constant bombardment in the press about 'lazy feckless layabouts' who will only attempt to get a job if forced....no one in their right mind is going to employ someone who constantly needs to take time off..if it makes absolutely no economic sense to an employer at all.

[Zonker]

I know certainly if i have to face such an interview i will be making an effort to ascertain the exact 'speciality' the health care proffessional holds.

[worried33]

I can sort of see his point. But where are these jobs that these people can do? I mean, some might be able to work; but only on their terms. I don't know about anyone else; but I wouldn't want to employ someone who constantly needs time off because they're too sick, fatigued, etc. to come into work.

 

except..

 

if their wages are paid by someone else.

 

the work programme.

[debt4get]

ah yes, the work programme so beloved by this and successive governments....given huge sums of public money to play with...and for what? they create no new business, no wealth, and are simply a drain on society

[estellyn]

ah yes, the work programme so beloved by this and successive governments....given huge sums of public money to play with...and for what? they create no new business, no wealth, and are simply a drain on society

 

No it does create wealth - for the shareholders of the companies who get free workers, who then use 'tax avoidance' to ensure this money benefits the country not at all.

[debt4get]

perhaps i should have left out the 'wealth' bit....

[estellyn]

perhaps i should have left out the 'wealth' bit....

 

Yeah sorry, kind of jumped on that didn't I?

[debt4get]

no it was a fair point.....but if we want OUR govt to spend OUR money wisely then w2w is an absolute scandal, along with ATOS....however, after reading Ed Balls message in the mirror today, dont hold out any hope of labour reversing any of these policies, it seems politicians of all persuasions think we will only try to get a job if we are forced to....god someone save us from politicians

[estellyn]

Totally agree its a scandal, and the fact that shareholders make more profit off it, and real employees lose jobs and access to extra hours makes it even more of a scandal.

 

And politicians....most of these people have no idea what life is really like, they've lived in a protective bubble all their lives.

[osdset]

We have history repeating itself, IDS has taken on the mantle of a 21st century Matthew Hopkins, this latter day Witchfinder General and his associates the 'Atossers' rally together at the cry of 'We shalt not suffer the disabled to live!'.

 

He and his cronies have invented the modern version of the torture chamber called the assessment centre, where computerised versions of the ducking stool and rack are inflicted on the heretics.

 

Burning at the stake whilst an ideal solution for Matt&chums is unfortunately now illegal, so destitution, homelessness, and starvation will have to suffice.

 

The original Witchfinder General died on 12 August 1647, probably of pleural tuberculosis, lets hope the current one shares a similar fate.

[RagDolly]

I complained to the GMC about the so called Health Proffesional that conducted my assessment, apparentlty they contacted Atos, and the outcome was that the HP said she hadnt lied on my form and Atos said they had no concerns about her. End of. Never mind that she had put yes to all my no's and no to all my yes's, scored me 0 points (previous assesments were both over 15) seems nobody has a chance with these people.

[Nystagmite]

I complained to the GMC about the so called Health Proffesional that conducted my assessment, apparentlty they contacted Atos, and the outcome was that the HP said she hadnt lied on my form and Atos said they had no concerns about her. End of. Never mind that she had put yes to all my no's and no to all my yes's, scored me 0 points (previous assesments were both over 15) seems nobody has a chance with these people.

 

And this is why we should be allowed recorded assessments.