Court Hearing on 9/06/10 - Egg/Cabot/Morgan v me - need help!!!

[cymruambyth]

Gosh aren't you the popular one ....... 5 guests:eek:

Good luck for tomorrow, I haven't been able to contribute much but you will hav my support!

[Martel]

Haha.....have a feeling I'll be meeting a few guests v soon!! Thanks for all your support.....mx

[citizenB]

Yes, best of luck for tomorrow.

[Martel]

Thanks, CB...tomorrow is another day, to quote Scarlett O'Hara! MC

[Housed]

good luck martel, hope it goes well for you.

[The Mould]

OH Boy, Martel,

 

I am so sorry that you have to go through this tommorrow on your own, I want you to know that you will be at the fore-front of my mind tonight and on the morrow.

 

You might think I am crazy Martel for saying this,

 

Here me Father, send your guardian, see this enemy off and protect my friend from injustice, lock up their tongues Father and hold back their evil plans, let this enemy fall into his own trap.

 

I am not religious Martel and I recognize no religion.

 

On the morrow your enemy will be weak and you will be strong, stronger than ever.

 

Kind Regards

 

The Mould

[Martel]

Mould, I think you've provided me with the PERFECT thing to say tomorrow (my mother would has sooo approved)!

 

And, Housed, thanks both for your sentiments...so appreciated!!

 

MXX

[Rhia]

Subbing and await your update from the court.

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Please give us an update if possible

[gh2008]

Ok, From your PM I do feel that you need to complain vociferously about your solicitors.

 

Apart from that AFAIK you do have a right of appeal, BUT you didn't say in your PM exactly what the Order was today.

[Martel]

Please give us an update if possible

 

thanks, Mrs H....not a gerat day...will post details next week...MX

[citizenB]

Just in case you need it.....

 

 

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...t-2927407.html

 

This is just some general advice on how to handle an Appeal (taken from one of my other ramblings elsewhere on CAG), which may be of interest to both you/Fred and any other genuine Caggers that may like to know.

 

Fred has 21 days to get his Appeal in, and whilst it may seem daunting, it's not as bad as it seems, provided he gets started and works through all of the steps to get everything ready in time for the 21 day Deadline.

 

This is the bit of CPR Fred needs to start reading:

 

PART 52 - APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is the CPR Supplement that goes with the above:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

A key admin step is to get a Transcript of the Judgement going. That should not be too expensive, maybe £100-£150 approx. You will need that for the Appeal. That needs Form EX107. Here's the link:

 

EX107

 

That is just a simple Form where you state what the Claim was, and say which Transcriber you will like to use. I can recommend a very good one, but I need to advise the name via PM not in open Forum. The person is listed in the Approved List of Court Transcribers and has been very helpful now to several Caggers.

 

If Fred can afford it, I would also recommend that he has the Full Hearing Transcribed in addition to the Judgment.

 

To clarify, the Hearing is always divided into two key areas when it comes to Transcribing the Tape(s):

 

• The Main Hearing (less the Judgment).
  

• The Judgment.
  

There can only ever be one Judgment Transcription, because the Judge has the right to check and adjust that, before allowing it to be released. In my experience, be prepared for some changes there to soften how things were actually said in Court! But there's nothing you can do, just get a copy of the Judgment, and allow time to organise that and be prepared that the Judge will want to see it to approve it, before Fred sees it. Best therefore to crack on with that ASAP.

 

I would advise trying to get the Main Hearing as well, although that will cost a lot more, depending on the number of spoken words and the time the Hearing took. But this can prove invaluable. Fred needs this if he can afford it.

 

Transcriptions can be paid for by the Court, if Fred is on a very low income etc, but he has to pay for them first before he can re-claim the costs. It also takes a long time to get any money back from the Courts.

 

On this subject, see CPR Part 52, 5.17 and 5.18 (that's all in the 2nd link above).

 

N460

 

This is a Form the Judge has to complete if an Appeal was requested and refused on the day. In that case, the Judge is supposed to complete an N460 straight away, rather than being asked.

 

So, if needed, get the Court to chase up the Judge to complete Form N460. That Form is very simple, and just sets out the reasons for refusing the Appeal. Those reasons may also be mentioned in the Judgment as well.

 

There will be an N24 Order that will appear soon too, that's a bit like a précis of the Judgment but should not be confused with the Judgment Transcription which will be much longer than what you see on the N24 Order. Fred will also need that N24 Order for his Appeal Application. That should arrive in the next few days anyway.

 

Fred should be able to get that lot underway in maybe a day or two at most, then you can work on getting his N161 Appellant's Notice ready.

 

The N161 Appellant's Notice is just another Form, many on CAG will help you with that, so don't worry. Here's the link:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice

 

That just leaves the key issues of:

 

(1) Grounds for Appeal:

 

This is the main bit that you need to get sorted within the 21 days, and have it ready to go along with the Appeal Bundle.

 

The main initial documents, provided you get them on time, will comprise the following bits:

 

N161 Appellant's Notice (including Grounds for Appeal)

N24 Order

N460 Reasons for Appeal Refusal (if needed)

Transcript of Judgment

 

It is VIP that you get that lot in within 21 days. Otherwise you risk having to make an Appeal Out of Time, which is a PITA. Get it in on time, and you then you have a further 14 days to follow on with the full Appeal Bundle.

 

That Bundle will include a Skeleton Argument and a routine pile of bumf that relates to the Judgment being Appealed. Most of the docs Fred will have had from the first time around, so the Appeal can be considered for permission to Appeal if that is also needed (i.e. if permission was refused at the Hearing).

 

(2) Route for Appeal:

 

This is just technical and will depend on what Judge you had, and the class of the Judgment the Judge made. It is all listed in the 2nd link above, or just click here:

 

PRACTICE DIRECTION 52 – APPEALS - Ministry of Justice

 

This is Fred's chance to put right what the buggers did wrong the first time out.

 

Get this right, and the opposition will be more worried than you are right now once they know you are Appealing.

 

The most this will cost Fred right now is the Judgment Transcription. He can always back out before the 21 day deadline and just accept the original Judgment, so do keep going and use the time to decide before the 21 days are up.

 

However, don't waste any time getting going, as 21 days is not long and you cannot afford to waste any of it.

 

Once the Appeal has been lodged, then you have 14 days to get the Skeleton Argument done, which is also key, but 2 weeks is a long time.

 

After that, it could take weeks/months to get to Appeal, and in that time you and Fred may be able to find the money for a Barrister who will take it over and take the battle back to them. If you win, you will get the original Judgment overturned, and you should get back all of the Costs, both for the Appeal, and also for the original Hearing.

 

A Barrister can later tweak your Appellant's Notice and your Skeleton, so your main aim is to get them in and good enough to get permission to Appeal (assuming you need permission, if the Appeal was not refused at the Hearing, then you may not need to ask for permission to Appeal and can just go ahead and submit the Appeal)...the Barrister can make the paperwork better later if you end up being able to afford a Barrister down the line.

 

Best of luck with this.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

Did the Judge give you leave to appeal? I might have missed this in the previous posts

[Martel]

No, ma'am. Will post more next week....MXX

 

PS did try to PM but you're playing hard to get! Mx

[gh2008]

no, refused

 

This does also serve as a warning - the DCAs are monitoring these threads more and more - if everyone works on the assumption that the DCA you are facing has the whole thread printed out in front of them in Court then it may change the way some people see things (that's not a dig @ you Martel - just an observation)

[Martel]

And, CB thanks for the appeal references.......MX

[gh2008]

You may not remember clearly - but what was their answer for how they were entitled to claim the full balance i.e. the sums not yet due?

[Martel]

no, refused

 

This does also serve as a warning - the DCAs are monitoring these threads more and more - if everyone works on the assumption that the DCA you are facing has the whole thread printed out in front of them in Court then it may change the way some people see things (that's not a dig @ you Martel - just an observation)

 

Yes, am always super cautious but quite a few of the expert advisers don't work behind the scenes (in the interest of other Caggers, clearly and, probably a way of retaining their sanity).

 

Car didn't care and that thread is hilarious as it taunts the guests.

 

Of course, anything done behind the scenes can be posted later for everyone's delectation.

 

And, some posts are also useful for putting them off the scent....if you know what I mean....

 

Oh, and by the way, some of the info scooped here by the sols will lead them down a garden path that will blow up in their faces on appeal....

 

CAG works in mysterious ways......

 

MX

[Martel]

You may not remember clearly - but what was their answer for how they were entitled to claim the full balance i.e. the sums not yet due?

 

Rather than mislead you with half remembered info, would prefer to wait for the Order. Your eyes will water....MX

[Guest Mrs Hobbit]

No, ma'am. Will post more next week....MXX

 

PS did try to PM but you're playing hard to get! Mx

 

Are you trying to PM me? I have set my PM just for Admin and Mods for the time being. Will be going off line until end of month after next Friday and being a parish councillor here in the Shires I am juggling quite a few things that have to be done before I go away. Oh I have to look after my retired sailors also, being their Welfare Officer.

[Martel]

Are you trying to PM me? I have set my PM just for Admin and Mods for the time being. Will be going off line until end of month after next Friday and being a parish councillor here in the Shires I am juggling quite a few things that have to be done before I go away. Oh I have to look after my retired sailors also, being their Welfare Officer.

 

I did. But it's not that exciting......I promise you a page (post?) turner on your return....MX

[Martel]

Well hello there, there is no right to cancel on the agreement which automatically means the court cannot enforce, sections 64 (1) and 127 (4)(b) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I dont know all of the details but if they have not complied with that essential piece of info then its game over, no need for all of the defence above.

 

Hope this is of help

 

KWS, WMW

 

Hiya WMW,

 

Had a lousy hearing the other day (adjournment denied). I don't have the actual order yet and tried to keep detailed notes (failed at that task) but I remember the DJ saying Cancellation rights were not required because I wasn't pressured into signing on the bank's premises or by door to door salesman and signed them at home (all done via post). Something about Section 67 didn't apply and something about 'no antecedent' (sorry can't recall more).

 

Does this sound right to you? I thought ALL credit agreements required these?

 

Just curious......am getting ready for another Cabot hearing on Monday (thread: Another Court hearing 14/06/10) - this one does have cancellation rights but am meantime getting my head around to appeal the DJ's refusal to let me appeal.....

 

Huge thanks!!

 

MXXXX

[gh2008]

What makes this a cancellable agreement?

 

That's right IMHO it was NOT a cancellable agreement.

 

The agreement is only 'cancellable' in the sense of s.67 "..... if the antecedent negotiations included oral representations made when in the presence of the debtor or hirer by an individual acting as, or on behalf of, the negotiator" (there are some exclusions to this as well) Few credit cards or loans are s.67 cancellable. The forms may have cancellation rights on them, in which case these are contractual rather than required by law.

[angry cat]

Agree!

[Martel]

IF they have not submitted a DN then what on earth are they relying on to entitle them to claim the balance as opposed to the outstanding arrears.

 

Problem is the solicitors have not picked that up.

 

IMHO that is the key to your defence.

 

check s.87 & s.88 & check MandM's recent Egg thread

 

Hiya GH,

 

I attempted to take notes during the hearing and the reading of the Order....but couldn't keep up. I DO recall sol saying a DN is not a precondition of recovery (??!!). That it's not required for recovery of arrears (think there was a mention of Sec 87 1.8e).

 

That doesn't sound right but what do I know?

 

Will be more coherent when written Order arrives.

 

MX