Gross Misconduct-Final warning & demotion

[dariusman31]

What am i going to do about returning to work?

 

If they've demoted me, and i disagree, and am going to appeal i can't go back when this is still in the air like this can i? doesn't going back to work effectively mean i'm accepting the outcome?

 

i'm so worried about this? i don't know what to do??!!

[elpulpo]

Ok. Sort there wasn't even a derogatory term used. Just this person's name.

The complaint letters and transcripts, were they an accurate reflection of that?

 

Joncris, I agree that this is a serious matter. But I think we're going over the top stating that someone can be arrested here.

 

You've arguably got such strong grounds for grievance here that it might be better not going back to work until this is sorted out.

Either by being signed off for stress (feeling very stressed? I would be!)

or by stating that you're suspending yourself from work until this matter has been sorted out.

How long have you worked there? (might have asked ya that already)

[dariusman31]

Ok. Sort there wasn't even a derogatory term used. Just this person's name.

The complaint letters and transcripts, were they an accurate reflection of that?

 

Joncris, I agree that this is a serious matter. But I think we're going over the top stating that someone can be arrested here.

 

You've arguably got such strong grounds for grievance here that it might be better not going back to work until this is sorted out.

Either by being signed off for stress (feeling very stressed? I would be!)

or by stating that you're suspending yourself from work until this matter has been sorted out.

How long have you worked there? (might have asked ya that already)

 

i've worked there about 2 1/2 years. i was thinking of getting signed off, i do get paid sick for 12 days, my partner wants me to phone my boss and tell him i don't think it's appropriate to come back.

 

the complaint letters were grossly unfair, one of them actually stated my comments were 'a direct racial comment on the guys colour and creed??!?'

the transcripts and interviews themselves were full of inconsistencys in my opininon, and the interviews, the questions asked were leading and throughout all of the 5 interviews conducted he never asked the same questions to each person so there is no continuity either.

[elpulpo]

The inconsistencies of the statements is promising.

Was there anything that was a down right lie - 'he said the N-word' etc?

I'd look towards getting a sick note.

[dariusman31]

Was there anything that was a down right lie - 'he said the N-word' etc?

quote]

 

i'll say, one of the girls in the office said i her interview that i'd actually said, and i quote

 

"you can't have a black santa"

 

which i just found unbelievable! it's actually on the transcript, i couldn't believe it, then at the dis hearing, the invstigating officer actually made a point , to the person accompanying me, when she stated no actual racist terms were used, he actually held up her transcript and said yes there is?!

[JonCris]

Ok. Sort there wasn't even a derogatory term used. Just this person's name.

The complaint letters and transcripts, were they an accurate reflection of that?

 

Joncris, I agree that this is a serious matter. But I think we're going over the top stating that someone can be arrested here.

 

You've arguably got such strong grounds for grievance here that it might be better not going back to work until this is sorted out.

Either by being signed off for stress (feeling very stressed? I would be!)

or by stating that you're suspending yourself from work until this matter has been sorted out.

How long have you worked there? (might have asked ya that already)

 

To make a false accusation alleging criminal conduct is itself a crime alas I doubt anything will happen ......... unless the OP complains ...... whatever else they do the OP must now go on the offensive by instructing lawyers on a 'no win no fee' CFA

[elpulpo]

But no one else quoted you as having used that specific remark?

I think, if I'd witnessed someone say that I would specifically remember.

[dariusman31]

But no one else quoted you as having used that specific remark?

I think, if I'd witnessed someone say that I would specifically remember.

 

yep, and if it was that bad, why didn't the whole room put in a complaint?

 

I've just rang my doctors and now i might not get an appointment before my boss wants me to return, i might just call in sick on wed anyway and attempt to get a sick note.

[elpulpo]

Thinking about what the woman claimed you said, possibly they misinterpreted the meaning of your statement.

Perhaps they thought you meant, 'It can't be soandso, because we meed a Santa, and Santa is white'.

Where clearly you merely meant that the guy wasn't electrically competant.

 

Did they interview you at the investigatory stage, ask you to give account of what you'd said, prior to the Disc?

[dariusman31]

Thinking about what the woman claimed you said, possibly they misinterpreted the meaning of your statement.

Perhaps they thought you meant, 'It can't be soandso, because we meed a Santa, and Santa is white'.

Where clearly you merely meant that the guy wasn't electrically competant.

 

Did they interview you at the investigatory stage, ask you to give account of what you'd said, prior to the Disc?

 

i think that's what they thought, then my boss said in the HR policys our equal oppurtunites policy deals with perception? which basically means i have to be a mind reader before opening my mouth??

 

They asked me to give my version of events at the disc not before, i was in the room 12 mimutes before they adjourned to make the desicion

[elpulpo]

This whole issue against you is a nonsense. Evidently a simple misunderstanding.

And it's a serious nonsense, given the gravity of the accusation. Being accused of being racist can have a very damaging effect of your career.

 

It all should have been sorted out way before it came to a disciplinary hearing. They should have properly investigated the matter, including asking you for your account of what occured, before making the accusation of misconduct.

 

Don't go back to work until it's successfully sorted out.

Get a grievance in, and make it clear that if they don't retract the accusation and reinstate you to where you were before, you will be instructing a solicitor with a view to taking legal action.

Edited December 18, 2009 by elpulpo

[dariusman31]

This whole issue against you is a nonsense. Evidently a simple misunderstanding.

And it's a serious nonsense, given the gravity of the accusation. Being accused of being racist can have a very damaging effect of your career.

 

It all should have been sorted out way before it came to a disciplinary hearing. They should have properly investigated the matter, including asking you for your account of what occured, before making the accusation of misconduct.

 

Don't go back to work until it's successfully sorted out.

Get a grievance in, and make it clear that if they don't retract the accusation and reinstate you to where you were before, you will be instructing a solicitor with a view to taking legal action.

 

 

I was hoping that my boss would use his common sense but that simply hasn't been the case. and he's let this 'pantomime' continue, to my detriment and he clearly doesn't care about his staff as he left me suspended for 4 weeks whilst he 'investigated'. i intend to get an appointment for the docs and get signed off for stress (and probably get something to help me sleep, as i haven't doen that properly in over a month!)

[teaboy2]

well am going to be honest i cant see what else anyone can advise you to do. so i would do what elpulpo has said in the post above and put in a grievance as make it clear you will bring in a solicitor and take matters further. YOu may also have grounds for constructive dismissal if your duties have slowly been taken form you leaving you as a supervisor with no supervisory work to do so to speack. so their intention maybe to get you to resign it seems to me to be that way. the fact they didnt dismiss you for this (although to me you are innocent) when any other company would just doesnt add up to me.

[elpulpo]

He investigated for a month? And made a complete mess of it.

It shouldn't have taken more than a morning.

Something else to add to the grievance. They have a responsibility to deal with such matters without any undue delay, not leaving you languishing at home, worrying about the outcome.

You were on full pay for the suspension?

[dariusman31]

He investigated for a month? And made a complete mess of it.

It shouldn't have taken more than a morning.

Something else to add to the grievance. They have a responsibility to deal with such matters without any undue delay, not leaving you languishing at home, worrying about the outcome.

You were on full pay for the suspension?

 

yes full pay but 'lanquishing at home' going slowly mad! if it were me it would have taken me a day or two at the most, i don't know why it took so long but to quote the company disc procedure:

 

....suspension should only be imposed after careful consideration and should be reviewed so it isn't unnececessarily protacted..........

 

............the suspension period will be for as short a period as possible

 

(author in bold)

[honeybee13]

Hello again Darius. I agree with Elpulpo and Teaboy. This sounds awful for you. I hope your doctor can help, because stress and not sleeping is awful, as I know myself. It sounds as if something has been blown out of all proportion.

 

I hope common sense will prevail in all this. You have great advisers in Epulpo and Teaboy.

 

I'm rooting for you, HB

[dariusman31]

Hello again Darius. I agree with Elpulpo and Teaboy. This sounds awful for you. I hope your doctor can help, because stress and not sleeping is awful, as I know myself. It sounds as if something has been blown out of all proportion.

 

I hope common sense will prevail in all this. You have great advisers in Epulpo and Teaboy.

 

I'm rooting for you, HB

 

 

Thanks Bee,

 

Can't imagine how my partner is feeling, she got a bit teary when it first came out, now she just wants it sorted, as do i.

The company will have my appeal on monday and i DO hope common sense prevails.

 

I'll keep you all updated here. Thanks to all epulpo and teaboy! you guys have made me happier, just to know other people believe me.

[elpulpo]

Well ,you need to be proactive (is that a word?) here.

You're not just appealling, you're actively pushing a grievance against the whole matter ever having occured.

So write a letter over the weekend requesting a grievance hearing and take it with you on Monday.

[teaboy2]

Well ive been having a little think about the constructive dismissal route. And given as you said that they had basically removed your supervisory duties from you prior to all this, and then to official demote you as a result of the false accusation id say that you have a very strong case and evidence for constructive dismissal as effectively they demoted you prior to the incident so it could be implied or argued that they were simply waiting for you to do something, weather rightly of wrongly that could be twisted into something it was not which is what has happened.

 

Basically they wanted the other person to have your job but could not demote you legally so have in my opinion forced demontion onto you by wrongfully accusing you and disclipining you for racists remarks. They didnt want to sack you as any other employer would for gross misconduct likely becuase of the same reason why its taken them so long to deal with this. that reason being they know your likley to claim unfair dismissal against them and therefore are afraid to dismiss you like any other company would for gross misconduct. so that says to me, going by what you have told us, that they know they can not dismiss you based purely on perception of what you said, and therefore they know they are acting wrongly towards you.

 

So i think we should all think about what ive just said and dicuss between us our thoughts on this aspect further and if we all agree that it is more then likley to be the case, then that will be the time to tell them that we know exactly what their gameplan is, and that revelation alone will hopefully make them hit the brakes and change to into reverse.

 

I know this is just a speculative opinion based on what has already been said but i cant see why else they are behaving like they have with regards to the time taken to deal with this and the fact they had held back from dismissing you when they found you guilty of gross misconduct.

 

Obivously you should still consult with a solicitor in the mean time too and get their thoughts on this aswell as on all other aspects mentioned here too.

 

p.s it doesnt actually have to be constructive dismissal as constructive discrimintation against you in favour of another would be enough to put a claim in on discrimination grounds.

Edited December 18, 2009 by teaboy2

[dariusman31]

Well ,you need to be proactive (is that a word?) here.

You're not just appealling, you're actively pushing a grievance against the whole matter ever having occured.

So write a letter over the weekend requesting a grievance hearing and take it with you on Monday.

 

so this should come as a grievance and not an appeal?? ok i should detail everything that's gone on over the last 6 months? the work being taken off me etc. and the way the disciplinary was handled?

[teaboy2]

so this should come as a grievance and not an appeal?? ok i should detail everything that's gone on over the last 6 months? the work being taken off me etc. and the way the disciplinary was handled?

 

yes i would include everything that has happened in the grievance. as i said above i suspect their is more to it then just the way your comments were "supposably" preceived

[dariusman31]

Teaboy,

 

I've read your last post and you're right, i should be thinking about constructive dismissal and a lot of my friends have said the same thing, it is worth looking into, as i have more of their lack of care for their staff as well, am i right in thinking though that the time frame for an ET is long? will it be quicker if it is constructive dismissal than unfair dismissal?

[elpulpo]

Attend the appeal first. Make it clear that unless the matter is resolved immediately, you'll go further and formally persue a grievance about the whole matter -change of duties, Disciplinary, the lot.

Pepare the grievance letter this weekend and have it with you.

[dariusman31]

Attend the appeal first. Make it clear that unless the matter is resolved immediately, you'll go further and formally persue a grievance about the whole matter -change of duties, Disciplinary, the lot.

Pepare the grievance letter this weekend and have it with you.

 

 

Right,

 

I'll begin to put this together, thanks again guys.

[elpulpo]

I agree to an extent, Teaboy.

Though I feel that this lot obviously don't know what they're doing, and if there was a clear agenda to dismiss Darius, they would have done it regarding this matter.

Darius must exhaust the grievance procedure thoroughly first, before even thinking about Constructive Dismissal.

Very, very hard cases to prove, and if he just packs in work now, an ET Judge will likely chuck it out long before it gets near a hearing.

 

Post #44, Teaboy, you put a ps. about a claim on discrimination grounds.

What type of discrimination are ya talking about?