Gross Misconduct-Final warning & demotion

[dariusman31]

hello,

 

I've recently been accused of making a racist remark at a meeting, it ends up my manager sided with the complainants, i never used racist remarks and it's down to how my comment was interpreted, anyway, it's gross misconduct and i should have been fired but they gave me a final written warning and demoted me from my supervisor position (but i'll still take the supervisor salary?) after the disciplinary i want to appeal but my boss wants me back at work, i don't feel i can until the appeal has been heard and dealt with, because i still have to work with the two guys that complained and everyone else judging me. I'd very much like to clear my name at the appeal but don't feel it appropriate to return to work. any advice?

Edited December 17, 2009 by dariusman31

[elpulpo]

I don't think you've much choice, unless, say, you're suffering from work related stress and your doctor would certify that you're in no condition to work.

What did you say to be accused of racism, if you don't mind me asking?

[Philip23]

As you say it's interpretation of the remark. You may not consider the remark to have been racist, but two people did and that's the crux.

 

Are you in a Trades Union, if so you need their advice. If not someone will come along from CAG and advise you on your next course of action.

[dariusman31]

What did you say to be accused of racism, if you don't mind me asking?

 

i made a jovial remark, my company wanted a santa claus to appear on the roof at an event, i joked that it 'couldn't be this particular fella' cos i remember how much of a clutz he was at the last event, apparently two of my team complained that this was racist (as this fella is also black) and then, when they investigated, everyone else 'felt' my comment was racist??? tell me where the racism is when i said 'it can't be ____' (name removed) this chap doesn't work for our firm and wasn't at the meeting.

[dariusman31]

As you say it's interpretation of the remark. You may not consider the remark to have been racist, but two people did and that's the crux.

 

Are you in a Trades Union, if so you need their advice. If not someone will come along from CAG and advise you on your next course of action.

 

Hi philip,

 

i'm not in any recognised trade union.

[elpulpo]

Just to be double clear here-

 

So, you said something that was jokingly adversely critical of or snide towards someone, who is African-Caribbean?

 

Nothing other than refering to him as a 'clutz'?

 

What's your understanding of the word 'clutz', by the way?

 

The 2 members of your team who complained, they're also African-Caribbean?

And everyone else (how many?)?

 

And at the Disciplinary, what was the explanation of why what you had said constituted 'racist'?

[dariusman31]

Just to be double clear here-

 

So, you said something that was jokingly adversely critical of or snide towards someone, who is African-Caribbean?

 

Nothing other than refering to him as a 'clutz'?

 

What's your understanding of the word 'clutz', by the way?

 

The 2 members of your team who complained, they're also African-Caribbean?

And everyone else (how many?)?

 

And at the Disciplinary, what was the explanation of why what you had said constituted 'racist'?

 

yes, jokingly, a 'clutz' because i remember him at an event being asked to give these balloons on sticks out and taking more than he could carry and nearly dropping them all, i thought at the time if they put HIM on the roof, he would more than likely fall off or get electricuted or something.

 

the two complainants, one is white, one is indian. (although born here) everyone else in the company is white.

 

Although i believe there is more to this than meets the eye.

[dariusman31]

 

And at the Disciplinary, what was the explanation of why what you had said constituted 'racist'?

 

it wasn't really explained but my boss mentioned, the HR policys and the perception of my comments.

[teaboy2]

clutz is - Someone who is extremely careless, stupid and a hazard to be around. in fact the spelling is either clutz or klutz.

 

So it appears your remark was misunderstood based soley on the interpretation of that one word and is a direct reminder of klu klutz clan.

 

basically you have been a victim of misinterpretation, so your defence in your appeal should be based around that. I would point out in a written statement what you actually said and how it may have been misintepretated, inlcude the meaning of the word Klutz/clutz when used by itself as prove it was not racist (take dictionary with you as evidence of the words actual meaning, so you can refer your bosses to it). also state that you did not realise that the use of your choosen word would be missinterpretated as racist until after you had said it and for that you apologise for it. I would also approach in writing only (approaching them in person is a big no no and could be seen as harrassment/intimidation) the people effected by your remark and explain to them as such as what ive said above along with giving them a full apology, upon hearing what you have to say they may realise they had infact misinterpretated the meaning of your choosen word and take the appropiate action with regards to removing their complaints against you (although that maybe easier said then done).

 

They would then have a hard time proving that your comment was racist, but next time choose your words more carefully as it is perfectly understandable as to why people, especially those of african/caribbean enthnic back ground or descendency would misinterpet the use of such word, after the way they were treated in the past and still treated to this present day in certain locales by the klu klutz clan or similar secret societies or groups.

 

on a side note the fact this was treated as gross misconduct i have to say you are very very lucky to still be in the job as gross misconduct is automatic dismissal and anybody else would be joining the back of the line outside the job centre. So your very fortunate to still have a job at all. Although i agree your remark wasnt intended as racist i can see perfectly well as to why it was taken to be racist and its perfect understandable as to why it was seen as racist.

 

the key to this is that they would have to prove that your comments were intended to be racist, its no good saying it can be perceived as racist, as that would imply asking for the black hammer being a racist comment if the request was made to a person who is black.

Edited December 17, 2009 by teaboy2

[elpulpo]

Just because this person happens to be of a different race or national origin to you, and you happen to deride them, doesn't constitute 'racism'.

 

'Perceptions' of comments mean absolutely nothing!

 

The severity of an act of alleged misconduct isn't indexed to the the mere opinion of those making the accusation.

An accusation has to have some tangible substance to it. Otherwise we'd end up were every single thing we uttered, could, at the discretion of anyone present, be deemed to be offensive.

 

I walk into work one morning, someone says, "Morning Pulpo, how are you today?".

But.

I percieve that to mean, "You effing Jewish 'C' word, The Holocaust never happened".

 

Did that person, therefore, subject me to appaling anti-semetic abuse?

Of course not!

 

I'd imagine that these people don't hold you in high regard?

 

You certainly need to appeal, in the strongest terms.

In fact, I'd issue a grievance

Edited December 17, 2009 by elpulpo

[elpulpo]

Clearly the employer didn't investigate the matter, or this would have been straightened out long before any Disc.

 

I hadn't thought about the klutz / klux aspect, Teaboy. Quite plausable. But it doesn't make the guy culpable.

Klutz is innocuous. That's why I often use it myself.

[teaboy2]

agreed. i wasnt actually saying he was culpable though as i did say he is the victim of misinterpretation.

[elpulpo]

I'd be very wary of apologising to anyone though.

I get a feeling that this has intentionally been used against him.

[teaboy2]

yes you maybe right there. it would help to know if their has been issues between dariusman31 and the two that had made the complaint. Even the slightest issues such as disagreements or arguements which may have resulted in some sort of resentment or anything that makes you feel that they resent you or dislike you in someway or form dariusman31, it would be helpful to know.

[dariusman31]

yes you maybe right there. it would help to know if their has been issues between dariusman31 and the two that had made the complaint. Even the slightest issues such as disagreements or arguements which may have resulted in some sort of resentment or anything that makes you feel that they resent you or dislike you in someway or form dariusman31, it would be helpful to know.

 

I've had some problems over the last few months, i supervise the two guys, one of them hasn't hidden the fact that he'd like my job, and the other just likes to cause trouble. Also my boss has also bought in someone in a business support role, and decided it'd be good for her to get to know my job, this woman is a very good of friend of the bosses and i've now found myself being supervisor in name only, she's taken all of my duties, i don't do any of my supervisory duties anymore, so i think my comment in this meeeting is something they've used and latched onto and because my boss has no experience of the dis/griev procedures or has never conducted investigations etc. it's been flawed and it feels like they're succeeding in pushing me out.

[elpulpo]

What size is the company you work for? HR dept?

You need to chase this up.

It can be very damaging to your reputation to have such accusations pinned to you.

Write a grievance, and send it to your bosses boss.

[dariusman31]

What size is the company you work for? HR dept?

You need to chase this up.

It can be very damaging to your reputation to have such accusations pinned to you.

Write a grievance, and send it to your bosses boss.

 

we're a smal firm, (8 persons) no HR, going to appeal the written warning and demotion, was thinking about a grievance as well. the appeal and grievance can be done at the same time as i have to appeal to his boss (the chairman of our board of directors) but my boss wants me back at work on the 23rd! and i don't think it's appropriate until the appeal is done and dusted, how can i face these people? they've effectively as a collective ruined my life as i'm also trying to get into the police as a volunteer and this is so incredibly damaging to me.

 

is it worth consdiering getting a doctor to sign me off with stress??

[honeybee13]

Sorry to be pedantic guys, this may or may not help the OP. I believe it's the Ku Klux Klan.

 

Good luck with this.

[dariusman31]

Sorry to be pedantic guys, this may or may not help the OP. I believe it's the Ku Klux Klan.

 

Good luck with this.

 

 

let's put this back into perspective before we go off on a tangent

 

I never actually used the term 'klutz' in the meeting or to anyone i've spoken to.

I only used it on this forum as a quick and easy descriptive word of this fella's capability.

[elpulpo]

What did you say then?

Was there any derogatory language towards this person?

Were you given/shown witness statements form anyone prior/at the Disc?

 

Very important that you sort this if you're making an application to join the police, as you say.

[dariusman31]

What did you say then?

Was there any derogatory language towards this person?

Where you given/shown witness statements form anyone prior/at the Disc?

 

 

this is how the conversation went in the meeting:

 

Person 1: we need a santa claus to appear on the roof, but he needs to be electrically competent

 

Me: well it can't be ***** then! (name removed)

 

that's it that's all i said, and then at the disc my boss started on about perception of that!

 

i got copies of the complaint letters and transcripts of recorded interviews with every one in that meeting about 5 days before the disc meeting.

[honeybee13]

let's put this back into perspective before we go off on a tangent

 

I never actually used the term 'klutz' in the meeting or to anyone i've spoken to.

I only used it on this forum as a quick and easy descriptive word of this fella's capability.

 

 

Sorry darius, I misunderstood that. I agree with elpulpo, it would be good to know what you actually said, even if you need to use asterisks when you tell us.

[JonCris]

Seems to me the OP IS being targted & if I were him I'd see an employment solicitor ASAP many of whom will work to a CFA particularly where there is a case of such serious slander. Also a solicitor contacting them will let them know you ain't gonna be a pushover

 

It should be noted that referring to someone as a klutz is not criminal but to accuse someone of such a serious offence is & could lead to the accusers arrest ....... even if their belief is genuine

[dariusman31]

Sorry darius, I misunderstood that. I agree with elpulpo, it would be good to know what you actually said, even if you need to use asterisks when you tell us.

 

 

no need to apologise, honey, i welcome all comments/advice.

[JonCris]

Also the "he's such a klutz" can hardly be confused with the Klan