Sherforce!!!!!!!

[Mr Worried]

Hi To All

 

A couple of year ago I had these call me re a debt ( cant remember what for) I paid the debt, as I knew no different, but after reading bits n bobs from here I was wandering , is there anything I can do re finding out about charges I may have paid etc?

 

Cheers in advance

 

Mr W

[Guest Happy Contrails]

The law decides what the charges should be. Contact the original county court that ordered judgement against you. There might also be a transfer-up fee but you need to discover whether you have been ordered to pay it.

 

The law prescribing fees chargeable by a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO) for collecting unpaid debts is Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004. Broadly speaking it provides:

 

Where the sum due is £100 or less - 5%

Above £100 - 2.5%

Mileage Charges - 29.2p per mile Max £50

Seizure of goods - £2 per site

Signed Walking possession agreement fee - £3.25 a day

 

Transport and storage of removed goods/valuation - the law provides "Reasonable costs" - See: Culligan -v- Marston Group Ltd et-al, no. 8CL51015 the court ruled that because the Bailiff produced no breakdown of his charges, he is unable to show that it is reasonable costs. Therefore, van fees, tow truck fees and attending to remove fees = £0.00.

 

Unlike certificated bailiffs, HCEO's cannot enter a property without permission. They are the same as a common debt collector but with a fancy name.

 

The following procedure currently has a 100% success rate. The letter below asks the HCEO to pass a truth-test about his fees. Three things can happen, 1) The HCEO can try to convince you his fees comply with legislation – and you now have a written confession he intended to defraud you. 2) He can refund you – and this is mitigation - the HCEO intended to defraud you. 3) No reply – you can proceed with litigation. In any event, you have caught the HCEO with pants at half mast with this letter.

 

Name of HCEO Firm

Their Address 1

Their Address 2

Their Address 3

Postcode

 

BY POST AND BY EMAIL

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME + REF]: Your fees.

 

I write following visits by your High Court Enforcement Officer, however after seeking advice there appears to an irregularity with your fees. I now ask you to provide the following within seven (7) days:

 

1) Written confirmation of your fees

 

2) Written confirmation of the original debt

 

3) The name and address of the organisation that instructed you

 

4) Either confirm in writing that your fees are lawful and truthfully comply with legislation, or refund me unlawful fees plus reasonable compensation for being cheated by your bailiff with his fees by midday the seventh day from the date of this letter.

 

A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006. Section 2 of the Act specifically describes a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. If no satisfactory refund is made to me by 12.00 midday seven (7) days from the date of this letter I will automatically make a criminal complaint to Police under the 2006 Fraud Act and the Proceeds of Crime Act. If you have charged VAT on unlawful fees then you may be reported for VAT fraud and your documents will be given in evidence.

 

This is a letter before action and is not a request to access any personal data about me in the meaning of the Data Protection Act 1998. It is delivered by Royal Mail and deem it good service upon you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It now is your responsibility and in your best interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

Copied to: [NAME OF MAGISTRATES COURT ATTN: THE COURT MANAGER]

 

 

If you don't get a refund in seven days, just start litigation. The HCEO (or bailiff) will go to extreme length to fob you off with excuses and try forcing you into applying for a Detailed Assessment hearing. Accepting a Detailed Assessment hearing only gives the bailiff control of the proceedings. There is no obligation for the Judge to comply with legislation when making its findings, he does not advocate for the debtor and always works on the side of the bailiff.

 

ALWAYS use the Small Claims Track to recover unlawful bailiffs fees, you get full control of the proceedings and you have the bailiffs dancing to your tune. This is because court operates under the Civil Procedure Rules - which explicitly requires the Judge to comply with legislation in his judgments - and – the Judge has to advocate for you - the debtor, if you are unrepresented. If you win, the bailiff company gets a CCJ against its name (NEVER accept a "Tomlin Order" as a compromise) - and that scuppers their application to renew their Category E (debt collection) consumer credit license. The law - Section 21(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - requires anyone trading in debt collection have a Category E consumer credit license. Applicants must have a 150% squeaky-clean credit rating before the OFT will grant a credit license. If the bailiffs cannot renew their license because of adverse credit information, then their careers as a civil enforcement officers is well & truly finished!!! The company will have to dissolve and reform with a new identity and guarantor (e.g. Drakes - now Marston), but if they continue trading in debt recovery without a license, they commit a criminal offence under Section 39(1) of the Act. That’s why bailiffs always pay very rapidly after filing the proceedings at court.

 

Download and complete a Form N1 from the HMCS website. The Defendants are addressed as:

 

[NAME OF HCEO COMPANY] a firm

 

Brief Details of the Claim - enter - Reclaiming unlawful bailiff's fees.

 

Particulars of claim:

 

I received the defendant, a High Court Enforcement Officer collecting an unpaid debt. The defendant dishonestly charged me [£AMOUNT] contrary to Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 prescribing fees chargeable by a High Court Enforcement Officer. The law does not provide for the defendant to charge me any fees where no goods have been transported or sold by them. The defendant did not move any goods in a van and I did not sign any documents for them. I have been defrauded by the defendant who is cheating with his fees and I asked for a refund but it was the defendant’s choice to keep the money. On 20 April 2007, Lord Lucas in the House of Lords asked HM Government (inter-alia) "whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter"? Baroness Scotland of Asthal, The Minister of State, Home Office replied: (inter-alia) "A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006". Reasonable costs have been defined by District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case No 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that “because the Bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable". I claim i) the sum of [£AMOUNT], ii) Interest under Section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from the date the money became due at the daily rate of 0.00022%, iii) reasonable costs the court thinks fit for being defrauded by the defendant iv) Reasonable costs the court thinks fit for Discovery of Information and compiling this case for court, v) costs allowed by the court at the prescribed rate.

 

If you are on a low income then complete an EX160 fee remission form.

 

File the Form N1 at you local county court. The claim will be defended (with the same old bailiff's ramblings) and the court will send you an allocation questionnaire. Keep all documents and receipts given to you by the bailiff and await the hearing date. Do not be bullied by bailiffs or their barrister outside court to get you to drop the claim. You want ALL your money back plus your costs and interest in CLEARED FUNDS. Go before the Judge and ask for it. When the judge has awarded your judgment, always ask the judge for your "costs of today at the prescribed amount", he'll award you an extra 60-quid on top of your costs. Remember, you are a litigant-in-person and court rules say the judge must advocate for you in court.

 

When a bailiff defrauds you with his fees he commits an arrestable offence. Your document is sufficient evidence and the police should at minimum, arrest the bailiff and question him under caution at a police station and the bailiffs DNA records permanently go on police databases!

 

The Chief Constable

Name of Police Authority

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

DATE

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: Reporting a crime committed under the Fraud Act 2006

 

I enclose a document given to me by a man saying he is a High Court Enforcement Officer (the suspect). He charged fees £AMOUNT when the law does not provide for any. The law prescribing HCEO fees is Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 and only provides fees of [£AMOUNT]. The law does not provide for the suspect to charge me any fees where no goods have been transported or sold by them. The suspect did not move any goods in a van and I did not sign any documents for him. I have been defrauded by the suspect who is cheating with his fees and I have asked for a refund without success.

 

I appreciate the police have a propensity to dismiss bailiff crime to be a civil matter, but the official legal position is the suspect commits an arrestable offence under the 2006 Fraud Act. Lord Lucas at the House of Lords on 20 April 2007 when he asked HM Government whether it would be right for the police to claim that such an action is a civil and not a criminal matter. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal) replied with, inter-alia (quote) A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006 (unquote).

 

Section 1 means by which this offence can be committed is set out in Section 2, on fraud by false representation. This section applies where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss. It is also possible that, where a bailiff repeatedly charges for work that has not been done, this conduct will amount to fraudulent trading either under Section 9 of the 2006 Act or under the provisions on fraudulent trading in company legislation.

 

The law can provide reasonable costs in respect of bailiffs transporting goods in a van (attending to remove fee) however no goods have been levied and no document has been signed by me. District Judge Advent on the 9th & 24th September 2008 presiding over Case 8CL51015 Anthony Culligan (Claimant) v 1. Jason Simkin & 2. Marstons (Defendants). The court ruled that (quote) because the bailiff produces no evidence as to how the charge had been arrived then he unable to show that it is reasonable (unquote).

 

Any offence committed under the 2006 Fraud Act is an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Please assign a crime reference number and I request the crime is investigated professionally and objectively and I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

YOUR NAME

Enc: copy of HCEO document giving contact details

 

If the police fob you off with excuses or tries a delay tactic, write down the name and rank of the police officer and contact the IPCC and your MP with a written complaint of 'Perverting the Course of Justice'. It is an offence under Section 4 of the Criminal Law Act 1967 to conceal a crime under false pretences. You will then find the police will start cooperating soon enough!

[danboy381]

Firstly you need to find some of your old paperwork?

 

No doubt the bailiff defrauded you of money by way of his illegal fee charging. When he did this he probably left his evidence in the form of a receipt. Do you have anything?

[ploddertom]

Firstly you need to find some of your old paperwork?

 

No doubt the bailiff defrauded you of money by way of his illegal fee charging. When he did this he probably left his evidence in the form of a receipt. Do you have anything?

 

 

If in doubt you can always send them a Subject Access Request as I believe they have to keep your records for 6 years, if I'm wrong someone will correct me. They should be able to trace you by your name/address if you can't find the appropriate numbers.

 

PT

[Guest Happy Contrails]

You can try the SAR route, but that is about acccessing personal data as described in the Data Protection Act 1998. Asking for a breakdown of fees is not personal data as it is defined in the Act. The Subject Access Request is used as a bailiffs delay device and the £10 fee has netted bailiffs thousands from unsuspecting victims over the years by deluding them a fee breaksdown - or screenshot - is the same as accessing personal data.

[High Court Enforcer]

Firstly you need to find some of your old paperwork?

 

No doubt the bailiff defrauded you of money by way of his illegal fee charging. When he did this he probably left his evidence in the form of a receipt. Do you have anything?

 

danboy381, you really are a bitter man. Quite laughable really. You have obviously been caught by an HCEO for not paying a court judgment.

 

Maybe you were overcharged, I dont know, but you shouldnt assume that every HCEO adds illegal additional fees. We act in accordance with the law, it's a shame that when judgment was passed against you, you decided to ignore it.

[seanamarts]

danboy381, you really are a bitter man. Quite laughable really. You have obviously been caught by an HCEO for not paying a court judgment.

 

Maybe you were overcharged, I dont know, but you shouldnt assume that every HCEO adds illegal additional fees. We act in accordance with the law, it's a shame that when judgment was passed against you, you decided to ignore it.

Most of the people that come in here are quite bitter especially towards the bailiff industry, and have every right to be. Im sure you are aware that this is a forum that helps people in what ever way they can to try and deal with bailiff matters, some times we get it wrong and rely on others to be corrected. Regardless of who is wrong or right, people come in here to get help to resolve the problem and to make sure that they are NOT being robbed by some bully bailiff, just so that he can line his own pockets or is on an ego trip because he feels that bullying people makes him/her feel that they above the law and that they can do what they feel like.

People really dont need to be told that they should not of ignored what ever judgment was passed, they dont come in here to hear that or the fact that their being 'bitter is laughable'. Many people come here as a last resort for what ever reason, and not just to try and 'get away with not paying' what ever might be owed, but to make sure what help they can get in paying what ever debt is owed and at an affordable way to do it, without the fear that their goods are going to be taken.

If you have come in here to give advice then please do its always appreciated, but if you are coming in here just to give out comments like you have in this thread, then you are no better than the bailiffs that are thwarting the law and make peoples lives a misery. For goodness sake have a little compassion, which a lot of bailiffs lack.

Maybe you should read through some of the threads in here and understand why people are so bitter towards the bailiff industry, and show people that a bailiff can help in a more constructive way rather than assume that every person with a bailiff problem is at fault and are trying to get out of paying their debt.

 

Sorry to the OP for hijacking your thread

Edited October 29, 2009 by seanamarts
spelling

[sherbrook]

Seanamarts, I would agree with your points raised.

 

Judging by the time of HCE's posts maybe he'd had a little too much vino.

 

[tottys]

Most of the people that come in here are quite bitter especially towards the bailiff industry, and have every right to be. Im sure you are aware that this is a forum that helps people in what ever way they can to try and deal with bailiff matters, some times we get it wrong and rely on others to be corrected. Regardless of who is wrong or right, people come in here to get help to resolve the problem and to make sure that they are NOT being robbed by some bully bailiff, just so that he can line his own pockets or is on an ego trip because he feels that bullying people makes him/her feel that they above the law and that they can do what they feel like.

People really dont need to be told that they should not of ignored what ever judgment was passed, they dont come in here to hear that or the fact that their being 'bitter is laughable'. Many people come here as a last resort for what ever reason, and not just to try and 'get away with not paying' what ever might be owed, but to make sure what help they can get in paying what ever debt is owed and at an affordable way to do it, without the fear that their goods are going to be taken.

If you have come in here to give advice then please do its always appreciated, but if you are coming in here just to give out comments like you have in this thread, then you are no better than the bailiffs that are thwarting the law and make peoples lives a misery. For goodness sake have a little compassion, which a lot of bailiffs lack.

Maybe you should read through some of the threads in here and understand why people are so bitter towards the bailiff industry, and show people that a bailiff can help in a more constructive way rather than assume that every person with a bailiff problem is at fault and are trying to get out of paying their debt.

 

Sorry to the OP for hijacking your thread

very well said if it was not for this site i would have hid under a big rock and cried but have had a lot of help and support from here and the support you get off the ppl on here is what gets you through these times more than anything all the best everyone..

[little_evo]

I totally agree Sean, it seems ashame that some bailiffs and their companies find themselves to be above the law, threatening "clients" to pay up, advising them to borrow money from others etc. IF only there was a real overhaul of the so called industry to clean it up and have a proper sense of purpose with regards to fees etc i think it would be best for both parties...

 

And after watching "Bailiffs" on the TV last night, it just highlights the fact that they seem to do what they want when they want and flout the law accordingly to suit them, if the debtor does not know his/her rights. (Although the programme was a few years old) If anyone has the time to watch i would recommend spending half an hour doing so...

[tottys]

I totally agree Sean, it seems ashame that some bailiffs and their companies find themselves to be above the law, threatening "clients" to pay up, advising them to borrow money from others etc. IF only there was a real overhaul of the so called industry to clean it up and have a proper sense of purpose with regards to fees etc i think it would be best for both parties...

 

And after watching "Bailiffs" on the TV last night, it just highlights the fact that they seem to do what they want when they want and flout the law accordingly to suit them, if the debtor does not know his/her rights. (Although the programme was a few years old) If anyone has the time to watch i would recommend spending half an hour doing so...

i watched this a few weeks ago was on my back laughing as one of the bailiffs had his van clamped and was going nuts shouting if you think im going to pay this fine you can think again...wonder who will be collecting off him???

[little_evo]

I've only just managed to catch it on cable, 2nd time of watching, it certainly brings to light in "real time" the life of a bailiff. Although the makers of the programme semed very one sided towards the bailiff which i think is poor production and doesn't actually show the true nature of their business.

 

It seemed all smiles and winks last night, i'm sure they just put up in front of the camera though!

[High Court Enforcer]

It's all staged. I was asked to go on it 5 years ago. They have to get authority from the debtor before the bailiff knocks on the door.

[danboy381]

danboy381, you really are a bitter man. Quite laughable really. You have obviously been caught by an HCEO for not paying a court judgment.

 

Maybe you were overcharged, I dont know, but you shouldnt assume that every HCEO adds illegal additional fees. We act in accordance with the law, it's a shame that when judgment was passed against you, you decided to ignore it.

 

 

its good to be amusing hce, as it creates laughter which releases stress, and is good for a healthy body. If you read my other thread that you where unable to reply to, it tells you a bit about me, so you don't have to assume.

 

You may act in accordance with the law hce, (judging by your £1425.00 odd answer on my other post i doubt it), either way i don't really care what you personally do, maybe you aren't even a bailiff, but in any event legislation is on the way to define the law, and this will arrive in 2012.

Edited October 29, 2009 by danboy381

[High Court Enforcer]

its good to be amusing hce, as it creates laughter which releases stress, and is good for a healthy body. If you read my other thread that you where unable to reply to, it tells you a bit about me, so you don't have to assume.

 

You may act in accordance with the law hce, (judging by your £1425.00 odd answer on my other post i doubt it), either way i don't really care what you personally do, maybe you aren't even a bailiff, but in any event legislation is on the way to define the law, and this will arrive in 2012.

 

danboy381, I joined this forum to try and correct many of the mistruths that are banded about here and whether you or others agree, I can assure you that there are a lot.

 

I have replied to your other thread and will continue to do so.

 

I am unaware whether it was the HCEO company I work for who you claim defrauded you but I shall trawl through your posts to try and get a better understanding.

 

As far as 2012 is concerned, I personally will probably be retired by then but I would advise that you are probably looking at 2016 at the earliest. Even then, provisions will be made to have a ruling for 'miscelaneous expenses not otherwise provided for' which will allow any enforcement companies to make a profit.

 

You can clearly see that without the current 'Fee 12' no HCEO business in the country could survive on the rest of the prescribed fees. Approx 400,000 creditors every year rely on us to get the money that the courts have awarded them.

 

Whilst you may have been on the wrong end of the law at this time, when it is you that are owed thousands by an unscrupulous businessman we will see who you come running to...

 

[little_evo]

""quote=High Court Enforcer danboy381, I joined this forum to try and correct many of the mistruths that are banded about here""

 

With respect, i sincerely hope by joining the forum you will also highlight the many truths of the industry. Many go about the "business" in a lawfull manner, but also the oppostite takes place. The news is plastered with sad stories of bailiffs ruinings peoples lives, (of which they should be accountable for) the bullying, the threats and suicides also, the unlawful fees added to an alledged debt the list goes on. Whilst i observe that one has a job to do (if one can call it a job), the law clearly needs to change as there is quite an obvious grey area that is being taken advantage of.

[High Court Enforcer]

""quote=High Court Enforcer danboy381, I joined this forum to try and correct many of the mistruths that are banded about here""

 

With respect, i sincerely hope by joining the forum you will also highlight the many truths of the industry. Many go about the "business" in a lawfull manner, but also the oppostite takes place. The news is plastered with sad stories of bailiffs ruinings peoples lives, (of which they should be accountable for) the bullying, the threats and suicides also, the unlawful fees added to an alledged debt the list goes on. Whilst i observe that one has a job to do (if one can call it a job), the law clearly needs to change as there is quite an obvious grey area that is being taken advantage of.

 

Little evo, I understand your points and it is refreshing to see that you have not just lambasted the industry like so many others.

 

Yes, you are right, the industry as a whole needs reform. It can often attract the wrong kind of individual but thankfully these people generally dont last long. You've only got to watch 'rogue traders' on BBC to see how many industries are full of these people, especially the 'building' trade. For the mostpart in my many, many years in the industry the officers I have worked with have been professional in their approach to what is a difficult job at the best of times.

 

I condemn the antics you and others detail. All I would say is if you spent a week in my office you may change your opinion on much that is posted. Remember, the 'haters' on here are only 50% of the equasion. The other 50% are over the moon that they have been repaid the monies adjudged for them that the guilty defendant has refused to pay.

 

As I said, I have tried to right some of the wrongs on this site but seem to wasting my time to be honest. I'll stick with it for a while though.

 

Edited October 30, 2009 by High Court Enforcer

[little_evo]

In all honesty HFE, i abhor the industry, (DCA's Bailiffs etc) whilst i have had no direct dealings with them myself (bailiffs, although i had a DCA come knocking on my door on a sunday morning recently, i duely told him where to go, followed by an abusive phone call which included 18 expletives towards my wife!), i have seen 1st hand how some in the industry abuse the nature of their job and destroy lives whilst being held unaccountable for their actions, and they feel this is necessary and lawfull.

[seanamarts]

Little evo, I understand your points and it is refreshing to see that you have not just lambasted the industry like so many others.

 

Yes, you are right, the industry as a whole needs reform. It can often attract the wrong kind of individual but thankfully these people generally dont last long. You've only got to watch 'rogue traders' on BBC to see how many industries are full of these people, especially the 'building' trade. For the mostpart in my many, many years in the industry the officers I have worked with have been professional in their approach to what is a difficult job at the best of times.

 

I condemn the antics you and others detail. All I would say is if you spent a week in my office you may change your opinion on much that is posted. Remember, the 'haters' on here are only 50% of the equasion. The other 50% are over the moon that they have been repaid the monies adjudged for them that the guilty defendant has refused to pay.

 

As I said, I have tried to right some of the wrongs on this site but seem to wasting my time to be honest. I'll stick with it for a while though.

 

HCE, you shouldnt blame people for 'lambasting' the industry in here, because if people havnt been wronged in one way or another by a bailiff or the company involved then they would have no reason for despising them so much in the first place.

 

Its good to see that you, as a bailiff, accepts that the bailiff industry needs to reform. In my opinion it needs re-educating with regards to how a bailiff should approach the public .

The bailiff industry should be vetting their employees before they let them out to collect on debts, fines etc and teaching their bailiffs on how to correctly execute a warrant and not teaching them how to defraud people, which we all know has happened by certain bailiff companies, which has been televised by undercover reporters. I shall not name them as we all know who they were/are.

I am a little bemused that you have placed them in the same category as a 'rogue trader' , Bailiffs are not traders are they? I am not trying to be pedantic here but a bailiff is meant to be a professional person working on behalf of the government collect on fines and taxes through the court system not trying to defraud people out of money for their own gain because that is what a rogue trader does.

I can understand and appreciate that bailiffs have a very difficult job to do and I am sure that there are many good bailiffs out there that do do the job that is required and in the proper manner. People in here are not complaining about them, they come in here to gain advice on the bailiffs who have misbehaved or come in here to gain knowledge on how to deal with a bailiff in the correct manner. I am sure you would feel the same if you were placed in this position, and please dont say that it could never happen because it could, mistakes can be made and I am proof of that. Im not saying that I am a mistake (my mother may disagree with me there) but a mistake was made where I had the pleasure of dealing with a bailiff and it turned out extremely nasty for me. That bailiff no longer works as a bailiff.

I am sure that the 50% of those who are happy probably dont know half of what goes on when employing a bailiff to get their money back and I am sure if they did know most wouldnt be able to sleep very well. Those of them that have a conscience that is. But rightly so they should get what is deserved to them.

People will always hate bailiffs, whether your a good bailiff or a bad one, its the same as people will always hate anything that they feel has wronged them and they will always try and justify that by what ever means but at the end of the day its the good bailiffs that need to get working on getting the bad apples out of the barrel, because its those that are causing you the headaches. But dont blame people for hating the bailiff industry especially in this day and age where most people are struggling to keep their head above water, like I said before have a little compassion and please dont scoff at people on this forum, yes they are bitter and rightfully so. and please correct us if you think we are wrong but you will find that people are corrected when something has been said out of place.

I'll shut up now