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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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MBNA CCA - Is it legal?


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@vint1954...

 

Thanks v much for your response.

 

Don't think I received anything more from MBNA ...such as a letter terminating the agreement. What happened after the default notice was that my account number was changed within a few days [i have written evidence of this] ...and I was contacted by EC a few weeks later.

 

The timing of the DN appears to have been too short. The change of my account number in a letter a few days after the DN [perhaps] indicates that my account was closed just a few days after my DN. However, there hasn't been anything else in writing from MBNA since the DN.

 

So, no letter informing me of termination [received], no NOA [received] ...and so far no reply to my SAR [received]. I guess it could be that the Royal Mail aren't doing a great job.

 

So with a lack of huge amounts of hard evidence, I'm wondering whether I should hold out to see if MBNA send me a response to my SAR at some point now it's well beyond the forty day mark - and this might shed some light on the situation.

 

OR

 

Maybe I should just send in a letter [thanks] as you suggest?

 

If you get a mo, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

Thanks - yoyo

Demanding the ballance in full is also termination.

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hello, i'm back. just a quick reminder, i cca'd mbna in Nov 09, received a dn in December giving insufficient time to rectify, followed by confirmation letter letters from the new debt owner and Mbna. i wrote accepting their unlawful termination and have now had a letter from mbna saying, words to the effect "sorry you have had cause for complaint, not our problem now, deal with the new debt owner".

 

there seem to be a lot of people in this position, are MBNA be playing the same game as the creditor in the mGuffink case. ie, getting to court then producing the cca at the last minute?

 

if so, what is to be acheived by going to court. doesnt mcguffink prove that we cant win, no matter what.

 

have i got it wrong here?

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You (we) no longer need to worry about MBNA. They've sold the debt (as they're entitled to) and are no longer the creditor. The question is whether the new owner of the debt can enforce payment through the courts. The law seems to say that the faulty DN and acceptance of unlawful recission means they can't but it remains to be seen if they try.

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Had a reply to my unlawful recission letter from Hillesden today. They've asked me to send them copies of the MBNA agreement (do they not have the original?) and the DN together with "full details of your complaint along with any tangible evidence to substantiate the claims made". Should I send them an (illegible?) copy of my agreement? I'm tempted to make a CCA request to them.

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Had a reply to my unlawful recission letter from Hillesden today. They've asked me to send them copies of the MBNA agreement (do they not have the original?) and the DN together with "full details of your complaint along with any tangible evidence to substantiate the claims made". Should I send them an (illegible?) copy of my agreement? I'm tempted to make a CCA request to them.

 

No,

 

You have put them on notice that the account is in dispute with the Original Lender. The people they Purchased the account from. It is up to them to ask MBNA to provide that information. In fact, it was darn stupid of them to take the account on WITHOUT the correct paperwork. :rolleyes:

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You (we) no longer need to worry about MBNA. They've sold the debt (as they're entitled to) and are no longer the creditor. The question is whether the new owner of the debt can enforce payment through the courts. The law seems to say that the faulty DN and acceptance of unlawful recission means they can't but it remains to be seen if they try.

 

Hi, nks22

 

I didn't think they could sell the debt when it is in dispute?

 

For me, MBNA haven't produced anything since requesting CCA in April last year so if Hillesdens have bought mine it will be interesting to see what they can produce! Although not heard back from them............ yet!

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  • 2 weeks later...

for the info of all concerned, i just received a letter from hillsden quoting the mCguff case. they said they will provide a 'true copy' if the original cannot be found.

 

if anyone can answer this, i would be obliged.... if hillesden produce a 'true copy' can they then use this to enforce the debt?

 

thanks BAB

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They are at perfect liberty to provide a reconstruction for s 78 requests. In court is a different matter. If they are going to try and convince a judge that their copy is a true and real copy, exactly as the original, they will be in difuiculty proving that. CC companies issue many application for types over a period with differing terms.

 

Dont forget, different rules in court.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi everyone,

 

just a question on Vint's post above -in these circumstances, is it worth calling their bluff? As in -"you'll be aware you'll still need a true copy of the original agreement if the case goes to court - see you there!"

 

BL

Well 6 years on and most of the defaults have disappeared, thank you CAG for a

ll your help

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello all, Hillesden have have taken over my mbna debt. they just sent me a document with my signature on it which is attached here, pretty illegible though. can anyone tell me if a judge would consider this a valid cca if i were taken to court by Hillesden for the debt?

 

 

comments gratefully received BAB

scan3.pdf

Edited by BornAgainBiker
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Would a judge consider it valid? Who can say what goes on in the minds of others?

 

60.—(1) The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents embodying regulated agreements, and the regulations shall contain such provisions as appear to him appropriate with a view to ensuring that the debtor or hirer is made aware of—

(a) the rights and duties conferred or imposed on him by the agreement,

(b) the amount and rate of the total charge for credit (in the case of a consumer credit agreement),

© the protection and remedies available to him under this Act, and

(d) any other matters which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, it is desirable for him to know about in connection with the agreement.

 

(2) Regulations under subsection (1) may in particular—

(a) require specified information to be included in the prescribed manner in

documents, and other specified material to be excluded;

(b) contain requirements to ensure that specified information is clearly brought to the attention of the debtor or hirer, and that one part of a document is not given insufficient or excessive prominence compared with another.

 

Where is the text that relates to 1(a), 1(b), and 1©?

 

Technically, what you've got is not a properly executed CCA.

 

For MBNA and Hillesden to attempt to pass it off as one shows how morally corrupt they are.

:!:Don't believe them! The wool they try to pull over your eyes is 50% cotton. :!:
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Subbing, I have a very similar document to BornAgainBiker's (same 04/04 document numbers). When they sent me their reply to my CCA request i got a from and a back and a blank (perfect copy) of the original front... presumably so that I could read the small print!....they are here if you want to have a look http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/261009-mbna-so-where-do.html

 

My DN is due to expire tomorrow.....so I wait with baited breath!!!

 

Thanks for a great thread!

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BAB, check the date that Hillesdens bought your debt from MBNA - their document often predates the comply by date in MBNA's DN; which means you were prevented from complying with the DN even if you wanted/were able to!

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thanks usaname & underdog. hillesden bought the debt 20/01/10, on the back of a faulty DN (due to insufficient time allowed). as food for thought, i just wondered, if the court disregarded the faulty dn on some technical basis or other, is the mbna cca that has just surfaced likely to be unenforcable in a court of law? just trying to calm my nerves a bit you understand. cheers BAB.

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  • 3 months later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all, great thread about a lousy lender.

I have a general hearing re MBNA coming up and wanted to clarify some of the points raised here.

1) Does'nt the Carey v HSBC (2009) ruling mean they don't have to provide an original at court?

2) If the DN asks for the whole balance as outstanding is too late to make the unlawful recission point in my witness statement or does that mean the liability reduces to the arrears only?

I'm certain the reconstituted agreement will let them down but have heard alot of people being stung with costs orders from their barristers on the day!!

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1) As I understand it that only concerns satisfying the requirement to respond to a CCA request and that it's still necessary for an original document to be produced in court.

 

2) There is an argument that you can accept it at any time and another that the main thing is that you haven't done anything to demonstrate that you believe the agreement to still be valid, e.g. by continuing payments. (That's assuming the DN is in some way non-compliant, of course.)

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  • 1 month later...

Hello, got a letter from hillsden on 23 sept 2010 re my wife's mbna account. They attached a copy of the application form my wife signed when applying for the account, it has printed at the top ' credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'. it also states a credit limit of £5500k.

 

Hillesden's letter says, 'as the account does not relate to a fixed sum agreement, the prescribed terms are not required to be on the face of the agreement'

 

the letter closes to say they do not agree that the account is unenforcable.

 

For the record, Mbna were 'out of time' re. their default notice and confirmed, back in January 2009 that the account had been sold to Direct Legal-Dtl and that all future correspondences should be directed to them.

 

does anyone have a view on the above, it would be much appreciated, as I'm now dreading receipt of court forms? thanks BAB

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The validity or otherwise of the original agreement isn't really relevant. What matters is whether or not Hillesden's are entitled to claim for a debt related to an agreement with MBNA. If your case is anything like mine the debt will have been sold to Hillesden during the remedy time of the default notice and I believe it's on that issue that you should challenge them.

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Hi nks thanks for your reply. mbna sent my invalid default about the same time as you received yours, and i followed the thread at that time.

 

What you say here makes sense. however, Im not sure how to challenge them, or even if I should. Should I write stating my position offering payment of the arrears and not the whole balance (because of the faulty dn) or ignore their letter and see how they will respond next?

 

Can I ask if you are being chased or are challenging them in any way?

 

on a completely seperate subject, but related subject, I wonder if you or anyone following this thread, might have advice on the following; I have a bank overdraft for 26k with Barclays. Under the determination made under section 74(3) of The Consumer Credit Act 1974, I have requested the documents I am apperntly entitled to relating to O/D's. All the bank have provided is statement copies. I have received many credit agency letters stating part v exemtion, but now have a solicictors letter threatening legal action. can anyone offer advice or any good threads where i can re-post my enquiry.

 

many thanks, BAB

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The arrears would have been due to MBNA had they not sold your account but Hillesden's will have bought it as a single debt (and probably paid about 15% of its value) so the arrears are no longer an issue. You don't owe them to MBNA because they've sold all interest in the debt and you don't owe any to Hillesden's as your argument is that you don't recognise their ownership of the debt. Any payment to Hillesden's would be an acknowledgement that you owe them money so should therefore be avoided. The line you need to stick to is that you don't owe them anything.

 

I sent this to Direct Legal/Hillesden's at the end of January:

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: a/c ref. XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

 

I am in receipt of your letter dated XX XXXXX, 2010.

 

This account is in dispute with MBNA and has been since XX XXXXX, 2009.

 

Furthermore, the credit agreement has been unlawfully rescinded by MBNA’s action in selling the debt before the statutory period for remedy specified for a valid Default Notice.

 

Not only is your demand for payment a breach of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, in line with the Office Of Fair Trading's debt collection guidelines, but it is also in breach of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and Data Protection Act 1998.

 

If Direct Legal chooses to ignore my dispute and the illegal recission and attempts enforcement I will pursue the matter with the appropriate authorities, including but not limited to Trading Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioner’s Office, the Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

 

I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to MBNA for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as Direct Legal cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

I have enclosed copies of the relevant correspondence with MBNA and would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

 

I look forward to hearing from you in writing. Please note that I will not respond to any phone calls or email correspondence. Furthermore I revoke licence under Common Law for you or your representatives to visit me at my address.

 

Yours faithfully...

I last heard from Hillesden's on 1 October, saying that the account had been placed on hold "pending a response from MBNA".

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