LLoyds Card agreement BEFORE 1985???

[vjohn82]

Hi

 

Received this letter from a creditor... any idea what the hell they are going on about? Never seen this statement from a creditor before.

 

 

 

Any help appreciated

[mikexlr8]

Send them the stat-barred letter:

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/599-letter-sent-when-debt-is-statute-barred

[Pinky69]

Lloyds have no money so they have gone completely bananas!

[mikexlr8]

Yeah key-thing here is DO NOT acknowledge the alleged debt.

[garden123]

I got almost the same letter from Barclaycard. It isn't that the debt is old but that I have had the card from before 1985. It has been run perfectly since then until this year when I hit financial trouble. So is the stat-barred letter still applicable?

[vjohn82]

Right... the important thing is that the debt is active and has been a facility used upto fairly recent.

 

The problem is that when I made a CCA request they returned with this letter stating that because the account was opened before 1985 they do not have an obligation to provide it.

 

I'm just wondering whether this was correct? I thought in order to take enforcement action they still needed a CCA?

[vjohn82]

I got almost the same letter from Barclaycard. It isn't that the debt is old but that I have had the card from before 1985. It has been run perfectly since then until this year when I hit financial trouble. So is the stat-barred letter still applicable?

 

Stat barred is only for debts which you have not made a payment on or acknowledged for 6 years.

 

Sounds like you are in the same situation I am in.

[baileyboy]

If thats the case then they cannot take you to court under the Act as they cannot supply a signed agreement. Might be worth sending a SAR request to see what that produces.

[debt4get]

'we have no obligation to provide you with a copy'..'but we are endevouring to find a copy'..'and be assured we would not have opened a credit card agreement unless we had a sight of a signed agreement' bloody hell this is the most self serving crap I have seen for a long time, we dont have a copy..we are looking for it....we definetely have a copy..unbelievable..put the account into default..if they have a signed copy they would have to produce it in court

 

does anyone from the site team know of this 'law' where they do not have to supply a signed agreement because it was done in the 1980's or is this just another example of a bank trying it on?

[vjohn82]

Well the Consumer Credit Act is from 1974... so I would guess every credit agreement would need to be in compliance with it from 1974 onwards.

 

However, I am of the belief that if this document is so vital to their claim to financial recompense then they would have the some way of accessing it fairly quickly. Otherwise, it's just carelessness.

[Rhia]

They haven't got a copy and are trying to bluff their way out of the hole they are in by quoting legalese tripe at you.

[vint1954]

Well the Consumer Credit Act is from 1974... so I would guess every credit agreement would need to be in compliance with it from 1974 onwards.

 

However, I am of the belief that if this document is so vital to their claim to financial recompense then they would have the some way of accessing it fairly quickly. Otherwise, it's just carelessness.

The parts relating to a signed agreement are part of the original 1974 act, that came into being in 1976.

 

They still need the agreement to go to court.

[vint1954]

S78 was brought into force on 19.5.1985. Schedule 3 of the 1974 act states that s.78 applies to an agreement made before 19.5.1985 where the agreement would have been regulated agreement if made on that day.

 

As such under regulation 9 of the copy documents regulations specifies that in the case of an agreement made before 19.5.1985 it is sufficient to supply a copy of the current terms - that acts as a true copy.

 

Obviously only for s78, not for court.

[vjohn82]

S78 was brought into force on 19.5.1985. Schedule 3 of the 1974 act states that s.78 applies to an agreement made before 19.5.1985 where the agreement would have been regulated agreement if made on that day.

 

As such under regulation 9 of the copy documents regulations specifies that in the case of an agreement made before 19.5.1985 it is sufficient to supply a copy of the current terms - that acts as a true copy.

 

Obviously only for s78, not for court.

 

That's how I read it too... thanks for the opinion... it's appreciated.

 

[garden123]

Thank you, Vint1954

 

How should we reply to this type of letter? Is the next step the Access Letter?

[cadwallader]

The copies of docs regulation appears to me to be saying they can only send current terms & conditions if the original has been lost by accident or other cause beyond the creditors control. So if they have lost it or destroyed it deliberately then they cannot comply with your s78 request.

 

 

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

 

9 Copies of old agreements and security instruments where the agreement or security instrument has been lost etc

 

Any copy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a security instrument relating to security provided before that date which is given to the debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that date may comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreement or security as the case may be insofar as they are known to the creditor or owner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, the creditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement or security instrument or any copy thereof.

 

Regards

 

Cadwallader

[vjohn82]

Ok... big question then...

 

Does an agreement made before 1985 have to have the prescribed terms (if they have one) to be enforceable in court?

[Dotty50]

I know this is a really old thread vjohn, but did you ever get an answer to this question?

[vjohn82]

I know this is a really old thread vjohn, but did you ever get an answer to this question?

 

Nope!

[caledfwlch]

Nope!

 

From what I understand they can fulfil the requirements of your CCA request by using a "reconstructed" agreement, but they cannot Enforce, ie take you to court without the original. So be careful and take CAG's advice on how to sign any communications, because you don't want a signature to suddenly appear on an old agreement, if you see what I mean

[debt4get]

Ok... big question then...

 

Does an agreement made before 1985 have to have the prescribed terms (if they have one) to be enforceable in court?

the agreement would still have to have the prescribed terms...but the question is moot as they dont have it...so would be unable to enforce anyway

[Dotty50]

From what I understand they can fulfil the requirements of your CCA request by using a "reconstructed" agreement, but they cannot Enforce, ie take you to court without the original. So be careful and take CAG's advice on how to sign any communications, because you don't want a signature to suddenly appear on an old agreement, if you see what I mean

 

Thanks caledfwlch, BC responded to my s78 request some time ago and stated 'under s78, we must supply you with a copy of your executed agreement and a statement of account which is practicable to refer. However, Regulation 9 of the 1983 Regulations mentioned above states for accounts opened before 19th May 1985 such as yours, we can send a copy of your current executed credit agreement'. They supplied four pages of conditions (not executed).

 

the agreement would still have to have the prescribed terms...but the question is moot as they dont have it...so would be unable to enforce anyway

 

BC sold the debt and the DCA is going to have a go as they have issued a claim through the bulk processing system! It could be that they are chancing their arm as I am one of a few that this has happened to in the last couple of weeks!

 

Andyorch is on the case for me and others and if anyone else has anything to add, it would be appreciated!

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?349319-Claim-issued-will-need-some-help-please!

 

Thanks

 

Dotty

[Old Cogger]

Exactly when was this CCA so called taken out (How far back)??

[debt4get]

I am assuming the posters are advising you to defend on lack of cca plus any charges etc that will have been added to the account no doubt inflating the figure they are trying to claim....normally with dca's once you oppose the n1 they normally back down...not always..but normally..the idea of putting it through the bulk centre is they are hoping it will go through unappossed

 

as a further aside this is going to be a case of economics...if and when you oppose whether it will be economically viable for them to go further into the system which means they will have to employ solicitors, etc in order to go to court....all of which costs....even if they do go this far it leaves open the question on whether they can win?....that is normally in the hands of dj on the day....

[AndyOrch]

Ok... big question then...

 

Does an agreement made before 1985 have to have the prescribed terms (if they have one) to be enforceable in court?

 

Read here :- http://www.the-repossessed.com/judge_caddick_judgement.htm

 

Regards

 

Andy