Advice needed

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Hi there,

 

Firstly, I admire whoever set this site up. I absolutely despise people who think they have the right to demand/take money of hard working people just because they think they can. We should all fight this nonsense!

 

I need some advice on a situation I find myself in.

 

I signed up to a martial arts club a while ago and the way they present the contract is a bit shifty. Although you pay monthly fees to attend, they don't class it as an ongoing membership, but rather one big fee (paid in monthly insalments) for the entire course right through to black belt level, which they state will take around 3 years. When taking out the contract (which I was made to hurriedly sign whilst exhausted after a training session when the club was about to close for the night), I asked whether I was free to walk away if my circumstances changed, they said yes. I have misplaced my copy of the contract, so am unable to see what it said. I would have thought their verbal reassurance was enough though.

 

I have a little boy of 2 years old and my home / work / childcare circumstances changed in such a way that I was unable to attend the club any longer. I advised them of this and they said they would put my account on hold for 3 months whilst I tried to change my cirumstances. In this 3 month period, I was able to attend only a couple of times. I advised them again that it wasn't working out for me, but after the 3 month period expired, the payments started leaving my bank again. I have since stopped the direct debit myself, and I received letters demanding money for non-payment from Belmont Finance, who apparently collect on behlaf of the club. Having tried and failed yet again to contact the club, I contacted Belmont themselves and they after much stalling, they said that the club had advised that I needed to pay £350ish (representing 3 months worth of payments) in order to cancel.

 

Bearing in mind that I already paid a month's worth where I didn't attend at all, and I had given them lots of notice that I wanted to cancel only to be stalled for months by them putting my contract on hold, then failing to get back to me, do I have a case?

 

Also, who do I raise a case against? The club themselves or Belmont who collect the payments?

 

Any help you can offer as to how I go abotu disputing this would be much appreciated. I have a mortgage and £640 a month nursery fees to pay (in order to go to work and earn an honest living), so I can ill afford this payment.

 

They are saying that the debt will go to a recovery agent soon if I don't pay.

 

Please help

[PGH7447]

Hi and welcome, utter rubbish from belomont

 

send them a cca request for the contract, this costs £1 and send it with a postal order, do not sign it send recorded

 

they then have 12+2 days to supply the agreement with the T@Cs attached

The Consumer Forums - Debt collectors

 

letter 8

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Hi thanks for this. I appreciate the quick response.

 

What is a CCA? Sorry if I am being stupid here.

 

Also, I singed the contract with the club initially, not Belmont...should I still send the CCA to Belmont?

 

If the contract did state that I can't cancel, even though they verbally said I could, do I still have a case?

 

Finally, you say 'letter 8', is this a template letter from this site? I'm new here, sorry.

 

Apologies for all the questions and thanks again.

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

CCA = Consumer Credit Act (usually 1974, in this context).

 

A lot of debts turn out to be non-enforceable because they do not comply with prescribed terms, or because the creditor doesn't have the documents to prove that you owe the debt, this is especially true if you have debt collectors hounding you, as they have often purchased the debt for peanuts from the original creditor and you have therefore no contractual obligation with them.

 

 

Send the CCA request to Belmont.

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors.html

 

 

 

Click on the 'link' and No 8 is the CCA Request.

 

What sort of Martial Art was it ?

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

Edited October 26, 2009 by maroondevo52

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Excellent, thanks for that. I will let you know how I get on.

 

It was an MMA club. Very enjoyable, but I am now realising that they run the place like cowboys.

[maroondevo52]

Just wondered, my son's a Black Belt in Tae Kwon-Do but pays only £28 per month.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Excellent. Any martial art is a good thing to know.

 

It beats the kids sitting on their back sides playing X-box all day anyway!

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Hi again,

 

I have sent off the request for this CCA and am awaiting a response.

 

Can you advise what I am looking for in the agreement when it does arrive, and what the next steps I should be taking are?

 

Thanks as always for your help.

 

Kind regards,

 

Chris.

[PGH7447]

if you get anything then scan it up removing all personal info and the experts will give it the once over

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Ah, fantastic. Thanks for that. I will do exactly that if I receive anything back.

 

Thanks again.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Hi again,

 

This has turned pretty desperate.

 

No response as yet on my CCA request (sent special delivery including £1 postal order as advised).

 

Today received a letter from Debt Recovery people, saying the amout they will recover is £3,500 (ish). Apparently I have 48 hours to pay or it may get passed to solicitors to recover and more fees will be added.

 

Can only think that this amount represents the entire 3 years of membership at the club (up to black belt level), plus whatever fees they have decided to add.

 

I am so desperate and worried. I have a little boy and it's approaching Christmas (Christmas day is also his 3rd birthday). I would actually pay for help now if any of you are pros and can help me here. This is ruining my life.

 

Can anyone advise what the next step should be for me and what action they can / will / are likely to take?

 

Please help me. What do I do?

 

Thanks so much,

 

Chris.

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Chris.

 

They are in default of your request, they should not do anything until they comply.

 

There's a letter you can send if their 'Legal' people get in touch.......

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/575-letter-to-solicitors-threatening-legal-action-in-default-of-agreement-request-

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Thanks as always for your quick response. I promise to donate generously to this site when this nightmare is over.

 

The thing that is worrying me is that the 'contract' with MAC (The Martial Arts Club), the CCA was sent to their fee collection agency (Belmont) as I was advised to on this thread. Now the debt has been passed on again to this new recovery agency. So who do I send this letter to? And who is responsible for sending me the CCA? I am dealing with 3 companies in effect now!

 

Genuine thanks again. I'm so grateful!

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

Send the letter to the 'new' Debt Collector.

 

Belmont have to deal with your CCA request.

 

 

There is a 'dispute' letter you could send Belmond after 12 + 2 days of them receiving your CCA request..............

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/571-failiure-to-provide-a-copy-of-the-agreement-within-the-prescribed-timescale

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

That seems to cover all bases.

 

I will send the letter to Belmont and the other one to the Debt Recovery people when they get in touch. From what I gather from the content of the letter, they aren't legally allowed to pass it on to a 3rd party before honouring my request.

 

I hope there is a point that they have to wipe this from their records completely.

 

You guys deserve knighthoods!

[car2403]

{{Sticks pointy elbows out, sideways, to edge a way in}}

 

Howdy IHPWCP.

 

A few questions for you, just to establish my understanding;

- What correspondance did you send to the club when they said they would "freeze" your membership for 3 months?

- What correspondance did you send to the club when you wanted to cancel your membership?

- Where their any interest charges, or the likes, applied to the agreement? Usually, they will say you can pay £X in a lump sum, or £Y each month until £X is paid, but did they charge for this? I'm asking this as it might be that the agreement isn't a regulated agreement under the Consumer Credit Act.

- When was your CCA sent?

- Was it by recorded delivery?

- Has it been received?

- Do you have proof of postage, if RD wasn't used?

 

I think you need to do a DPA SAR to the club to get details of what the original agreement stated, plus a copy of it for your records - see below;

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Send this to the Club, by recorded delivery. Print your name - do not place your signature on it. I'd say you should send it with a postal order, (extra cost, I know) but a cheque would have your signature on and we don't want to give them that right now - if you can get a friend to give you a £10 cheque in return for a crisp £10 note, that would work too. (Would have their signature on, not yours )

 

It might worthwhile sending the above to Belmont, as well, but that isn't necessary at this point.

 

Have you spoken to the club Manager and explained the situation? Sometimes, Head Office just do this sort of thing automatically, (clearly have issues with people cancelling ) whereas your local Manager may have authority to resolve your problem quickly.

 

The issues we need answers to here are;

 

1) Do you owe them the money

2) Do you owe them the money

3) Do you owe them the money

4) Do you owe them the money

 

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

All correspondence was sent by e-mail originally saying I wanted to cancel. I'm not entirely sure I have all of it still (stupid I know). The reason for this is because I was under the impression that I was just notifying them that I wouldn't be attending any more. What I thought I signed was just a thing which allowed them to take direct debits from my bank. They verbally assured me that should my circumstances change and stop me attending (which they ultimately did), that I would be able to stop the payments at ay time. If I did sign anything else, then I wasn't aware that's what I was signing for. I wasn't given a copy of anything. To be honest, I was hurriedly asked to sign the form after a tough training session when I was exhausted and they were hurrying me along becuase the club was due to close for the night. I know there verbal reassurance possibly counts for nothing and I probably should have been more diligent with what I was signing, but only hindsight tells me that now.

 

I believe they laid out a payment structure (initial payment of an amount that was very similar to all of the other payments - I don't think any intrest was mentioned). I was told that this was a structure of the plan SHOULD I continue to black belt level over the 3 years. I specifically asked if I could opt out if my circumstances change and they said that was fine.

 

The thing is, they are asking me for 3 years of payments! I only attended for a few months. How can they charge me for something they hyaven't given me? Surely they can't.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Sorry....yes I have a recipt for Special Delivery postage of my CCA request. It is at work, so I can't check the exact date, but it was over 2 weeks ago. How do I check if it was received? I took it as read that it was received, as it was Special Delivery. My naivety is shocking, I know!

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

And yes, I have e-mailed the manager with no response. Rang to be told he wasn't available and visited the club to be told he wasn't around.

[car2403]

If you check the Royal Mail website, put your Special Delivery reference number in, it will tell you when it was delivered.

 

If sounds like you have all the evidence that you need (emails - but you'll need to check) that you did, indeed, cancel. What we need now is evidence of what was agreed to in the agreement - the DPA SAR will reveal that, should the CCA not cover the agreement, or the CCA request will, if it does.

 

What was said when you signed up probably isn't relevant to what is contained in the agreement - I always say that documentation beats conversation, at least evidentially. That doesn't mean we're beat, though, as there are many new regulations surrounding the fair treatment of customers - it seems to me that what they said when you entered in to the agreement probably resulted in an unfair relationship between you, leaving them with all the power, and you having being mislead in to entering an agreement that you wouldn't have entered in to if they had been honest at that time.

 

For now, then, send the DPA SAR off to the Club and send this to Belmont;

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/580-letter-when-bankdca-attempt-to-collect-on-penalty-charge-situation

 

Just adapt it to suit your situation - post it up here first, if unsure.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Thanks so much again. I will keep you posted with ay developments!

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Quick question before I send these letters tomorrow. If I am sending one letter to the club and one to Belmont, won't the debt collection agency that it is now in the hands of be completely unaware that I am disputing the 'debt'? Therefore, won't they continue with their nasty measures nonetheless? What exactly are they entitled to do?

 

Sorry if I am just being paranoid. I am just worried about knocks on the door etc... while I am trying to sort this out.

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Addig to this, I have just checked online and my Special Delivery CCA request was received and signed for by Belmont on 29/10/2009. I have received nothing as yet. What are the implications of this?

[ihatepeoplewhoconpeople]

Hi again - As advised earlier in this thread, I made another attempt to contact the club manager to resolve amicably. Below are the e-mails (mine at the bottom, his response above it). He claims to have sent me e-mails that I haven't received and refers to 'proof'. I am not sure if this is 'proof' that my circumstances have changed or 'proof' that I want to cancel. He also gives a break down of what the original amount (circa £300) was made up of (basically a 3 month notice period, which I was unaware of) and one month owing from before that (which with proof I would probably accept).

 

Any advice would be greatly received.

 

 

Hello XXXX,

 

I am a little confused to say the least with regards to this matter and can only assume that some of my e mails have not been received or they have been understood.

 

After your last email I advised you that I needed some form of proof to present the Academy Principal regarding the cancelation of your agreement. However I did point out to you at that time that there was a minimum cancelation period specified on your Academy Membership form of 3 months. Additionally you hadn’t settled an outstanding amount from April 2009 that we hadn’t mentioned up to the point when you requested a cancelation of the agreement. This would account for your payment to cancel your agreement.

 

The amount owing has now increased because Belmont has classed your account as delinquent. As I have received nothing from you regarding your situation I have been unable to intervene and the full amount of your agreement is now due plus any charges incurred.

 

This is why I had originally asked you to send the confirmation to me directly so I could bring this matter to an amicable conclusion. Martial art is about personal development and requires personal commitment. Without commitment you will never achieve anything and it is very easy to back away from a challenge because it’s difficult. This is why we have to be sure there is a genuine reason for any agreement cancelation.

 

I would be grateful if you could forward me any information you may have regarding your current circumstances or a confirmation from your legal advisors if necessary and I will present this to the Academy Principal.

 

Thank you for email and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

 

 

 

 

From:

Sent: 16 November 2009 11:53

To:

Subject: Regarding the account of Christopher Freeman

 

Paul,

 

I have sent a CCA request to Belmont regarding my account. It was received and signed for by special delivery, but the 14 day timeframe that they legally have to respond has now expired. Legally, they are therefore in breach of the request.

 

I have since received a letter advising that this has been passed to the debt collection service (which they are not legally entitled to do, due to the outstanding CCA request). Further to this, the amount owing has now jumped dramatically to £3,548.25.

 

I am about to send a Subject Access Request to yourselves via post which will also be by special delivery. The legal party I am being advised by however have advised that as an initial measure I should contact yourself, as you may have the authority to resolve this informally to prevent further work and inconvenience for all concerned. This is the purpose of me contacting you today. I would ideally like to resolve this without further costs and administration being incurred by myself, MAC and Belmont, which seems to make sense for everyone.

 

I have been advised to retain a copy of this e-mail and any subsequent response as further evidence of my constant attempts to resolve the issue. I have been diligent in trying to advise you of my situation for many months, long before I ceased attending completely. Therefore, I am disputing that I owe anything, as I have never been advised of any ‘cancellation fee’ that applies, not least the amount stated above. Also, had I not been verbally assured initially of the flexibility of my ongoing attendance, then I would never have commenced attending at all.

 

I would be grateful of a response at your earliest convenience, regarding what you can do to help me resolve this, as I am keen to move this forward in one way or another. In the absence of a response, I will continue to follow the advice of my advising party, whilst noting this request as ‘unacknowledged’.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

XXXX

Edited November 16, 2009 by car2403
Removing personal details

[car2403]

Er, the right to cancel any agreement isn't going to be dependant on your providing a good enough reason to cancel it, IMHO.

 

They can demand all they want, but you aren't required to provide reasoning behind your cancellation.

 

If there's money owed, it should be repaid, but that's that - the agreement should be cancellable. He seems to be suggesting a 3 month minimum term?