GE Woodchester Car Finance loan to Link Outsourcing

[beachcomber60]

Hi Peter,

 

It was taken out Dec. 2004 (As I now know a couple of weeks before they become 'regulated' which they are using against my mis sold ppi claim which involved Paul looking into the agreement - alerted by alanalana whom I also thank.

 

Jim

[militantconsumer]

Hi bc,

 

I can understand your predicament here because consumer credit law is complicated and it is always a difficult decision as to whether you are confident enough of your case to stop paying entirely.

 

Of course the creditor relies on this and will try and scare you by threatening all sorts of things.

 

I think the FLA are a bit of an unknown quantity. Pretty much every finance company is regulated by the FSA/FOS now, but some older agreements don't seem to be covered by that.

 

Having said all this, you seem to have a dodgy agreement and an excellent claim for mis-selling, so I would think the odds are stacked in your favour.

 

Have you received a response to pt's second letter yet?

[beachcomber60]

Hi bc,

 

I can understand your predicament here because consumer credit law is complicated and it is always a difficult decision as to whether you are confident enough of your case to stop paying entirely.

 

Of course the creditor relies on this and will try and scare you by threatening all sorts of things.

 

I think the FLA are a bit of an unknown quantity. Pretty much every finance company is regulated by the FSA/FOS now, but some older agreements don't seem to be covered by that.

 

Having said all this, you seem to have a dodgy agreement and an excellent claim for mis-selling, so I would think the odds are stacked in your favour.

 

Have you received a response to pt's second letter yet?

 

No, pt's second letter was ignored & the timescale I set for a reply has expired, the only response I got was a phone call (I dont usually talk about finances over the phone, they caught me out after a busy nightshift, thought they wanted to discuss my claim/complaint but it was to warn me what would happen should I cease payments - there is no ccj so their threat of a charging order or attachment of earnings is hot air), I simply cant seem to get past their customer service 'officer' who, as pt has pointed out, doesnt understand the cca 1974 - not that I do either.

 

Beachy

[beachcomber60]

Dear Sir

 

Thank you for your letter dated XXXXXX the contents of which i note.

 

If it is your view that the payment protection policy is not credit, then it must be a charge for credit and must be incorporated within the total charge for credit ( see s9(4) CCA 1974)

 

accordingly the total charge for credit would be misstated as you have failed to incorporate this correctly into the total charge for credit and accordingly the agreement is improperly executed. In addition the APR would be incorrectly stated as a result of this point due to the fact that it would fail to incorperate the cost of the PPI into the Total charge for credit calculations

 

If you are of the view that the policy was cancellable then i would ask you to confirm where this provision is set out within the contract as i am unaware of such a provision.

 

in response to your comment that you could not have ascertained the cost of the policy i cannot agree with this statement, clearly it requires little maths to work out that 60 payments of £41.91 clearly equals £2514.60 therefore it is simple maths to calculate the cost of the policy over the term of the agreement

 

As previously stated, i do not believe the agreement is properly executed , it would be my submission that either the PPI is credit in which case my previous letter stands or that in light of your view, the policy must be a charge for credit and accordingly the agreement is improperly executed

 

I look forward to your response

 

Hi PT, Tried to PM you but your mailbox is full, could really do with your assistance - have completely ignored that second letter, and I have had a call threatening charging order or attachment to earnings via my employer - like to see them try - I'm self employed!

 

Any assistance/advice gratefully received

 

Regards

Beachy (Jim)

[beachcomber60]

Bumping for PT2537 or site team guideance, must start kicking this idiot at GE, they completely ignore me - if the agreement is that bad should I stop paying them? I feel as long as Iam forced to pay they will carry on ignoring my letters.

 

Beachy

[militantconsumer]

Bumping for PT2537 or site team guideance, must start kicking this idiot at GE, they completely ignore me - if the agreement is that bad should I stop paying them? I feel as long as Iam forced to pay they will carry on ignoring my letters.

 

That really is the crux of the issue - are you confident enough in what you have read to stop paying? First you will get letters, phone calls, threats of doorstep visits, threats of defaults, and ultimately legal action - IF they think they can win. If what PT has been telling you is right (and he has a lot of relevant experience) then it will never come to that stage, unless they are really stupid.

 

This is a self help site, and at some stage you will have to make the decision for yourself (or even bring in outside legal help on a no win no fee basis if you really think you can't go it alone).

 

I'm sure you will get a lot more help from other CAGgers if you ask specific questions, but you really do have to make sure you understand the arguments yourself and make an informed decision.

 

If you decide to take them on, then inevitably that will involve cancelling your regular payment, at which point they will try and scare you into starting to pay again.

 

Good luck - I'll certainly be following your thread, and helping in any way I can - though my experience is very limited.

[Goldlady]

How much is still outstanding? ie What do you stand to be taken to court for if you do stop making payments?

[beachcomber60]

Hi,

 

Up until last July I didnt understand that you could challenge the creditors let alone understand the workings of the consumer credit act, taking them to court scares the pants off me.

 

The outstanding balance is about £3k of which just over £1,900 is ppi which I initially tried to reclaim but they've told me they werent regulated so they are not liable for mis selling. PT has looked at the agreement and found that it is flawed, GE said my complaint is 'unjust' and wont deal with my complaint anymore.

 

Beachy

[Goldlady]

So, from looking at Paul's letter there is about £500 still outstanding if you deduct the mis-sold PPI. Without reading the whole thread, if it was me I would make payments until the £500 is cleared and then tell them to put up or shut up. Is this a secured loan?

[militantconsumer]

So, from looking at Paul's letter there is about £500 still outstanding if you deduct the mis-sold PPI. Without reading the whole thread, if it was me I would make payments until the £500 is cleared and then tell them to put up or shut up. Is this a secured loan?

 

I have disagree with this advice.

 

If a loan agreement is unenforceable then it is a pretty clear cut issue as you can never be forced to pay by anyone, even the court - therefore if you are confident about it you can stop paying entirely.

 

If you want final closure on the issue then you can negotiate with the lender - e.g. offer them a % of the outstanding balance (10% or less?) as full and final settlement on the condition that your credit files are sorted out.

 

Of course, the time to negotiate is once they realise you are not going to be intimidated by their phone calls, home visits and other scare tactics. In other words, once they have almost given up on your case as a lost cause.

 

PPI claims are not so clear cut and there are lots of ways to lose this argument - if it went to court then the judge might just think you are jumping on the PPI bandwagon, that you've enjoyed the benefit of the PPI for x years without complaining before, etc, etc.

 

By all means include PPI as part of your reasons for disputing the debt - it is all ammunition that they will have to consider when assessing the likelihood of getting any money out of you in the future. (and, by the way, if you add both contractual interest and 8% court interest onto your PPI payments, it might add up to more than you think).

 

But don't rely on PPI mis-selling on its own. If the agreement is defective then, as PT will tell you, it's game over for them.

[beachcomber60]

Thank you both for your input, regarding ppi - at the time I took out the loan (top up loan , which did not have ppi) I was told that I had to have ppi to get the loan approved) even though I told them I was self employed (still am).

 

Due to a company going belly up last year which effected both myself & OH I stumbled across CAG (to be frank - saved my life!) I started looking into cca's & ppi etc. alanalana initially alerted Paul to scan over the cca. GE wont entertain the ppi - their view is that they werent regulated at the time - so tough luck.

 

Think I will try another letter and point out Pauls findings again and tell em I intend stopping payments, their threat of charging order is just that - a threat, there is no ccj although they did issue a default - which I believe is not in the correct format.

[militantconsumer]

Did you try and claim on the PPI but had your claim rejected due to not being in employment? If so, that does tend to make claims easier from what I have heard - certainly more clear cut than cases when it is just your word against theirs as to what was said at the time the PPI was sold.

 

Not being regulated by the Financial Ombudsman is not the same as not being regulated at all - they still had to abide by the laws of the land, for example not misrepresenting a contract.

[beachcomber60]

Hi MC, the ppi reclaim is/was based on the fact that I was told that the loan application would go through quicker if I had the ppi even though she was told that I was self employed so unemployment cover would not be of any use to me.

 

When I sent my complaint letter I had a reply within 5 days stating that they had 'fully investigated' and there were no grounds to refund ppi, it was their final response and I was to take it up with Finance & Leasing Association.

 

BC

[militantconsumer]

Did you try and claim on the PPI?

 

Have you complained to the FLA?

[beachcomber60]

No never attempted to claim, as I knew full well that being self employed & working contracts for several companies at thesame time I will never be classed as unemployed.

 

So far as the FLA is concerned I have mixed feels about them , as GE pay to be members of the FLA. I cannot see how they can be unbiassed

[militantconsumer]

Some PPI policies DO allow you to claim even if you were self employed.

 

If you say you understood everything at the time but still took the policy out then your only mis-selling argument is that they implied that taking out their PPI was in some way a condition of the loan being accepted. This was unlawful, even if they weren't regulated by the FOS at the time. However, the problem is convincing either the FLA or a judge that this is really what happened, and that you haven't just decided to try your luck after reading about PPI mis-selling on the internet. This is why PPI claims are tricky.

 

And that is why it may be easier to focus on the unenforceability angles.

[beachcomber60]

Yeap, starting to think the best line of attack is the agreement as per PT's comments and findings.

 

Would I be correct in saying that the account is now in dispute?

[militantconsumer]

I think if you send a dispute letter by recorded/special delivery (and have the Royal Mail website print off to prove it) then they do have to investigate properly and must suspend debt collection activity in the meantime.

 

Some people have put the following at the bottom of their dispute letters:-

 

I trust you will now be in a position to reduce the balance on this account to £0 and to remove any default that has been registered by yourselves with any credit reference agency, as required by the Data Protection Act 1984.

 

Furthermore, please be aware that from this point onwards I will respond only to written contact. You are now under notice that I will not discuss personal or confidential matters over the phone under any circumstances whatsoever.

 

I trust you are aware of the limitations placed upon you now that the account has been formally disputed. I particularly draw your attention to the legal requirement that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a valid and enforceable credit agreement and the payment protection insurance complaint are both very clear disputes and therefore the following applies:

• You must not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

• You must not add any further interest or charges to this account.

• You must not pass this account to any third party.

• You must not issue a default notice on this account.

• You must not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies. [ONLY INCLUDE THE NEXT BIT IF THEY ARE SUBSCRIBERS: To register information with the credit reference agencies, or to issue a default notice, would also be in breach of Section 13.6 of The Banking Code, which stipulates that you can only register such information if the amount owed is not in dispute. I note that you are a subscriber to this Code.]

 

Any further actions taken by XXXX to collect the alleged debt whilst it is under dispute will be vigorously defended. I am also aware of the law regarding harassment of creditors under these circumstances and will use UK law to defend myself.

 

I think this is based on the OFT guidelines into debt collection:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft664.pdf

[beachcomber60]

Thanks MC,

 

Like the additional notes, will certainly add it.

 

Will update when & if they reply, thanks for your valued input.

 

Beachy

[Goldlady]

We had PPI with GE for a card, not that we asked for it but OH had signed the box without realising. Tried to claim when our company went bust but as you said earlier we are never going to sign on so the insurance would not pay up. So whilst it may cover you being self employed or a company director, the only way you would get anything would be to sign on the dole.

[beachcomber60]

Thanks Goldlady,

 

Were you successful in reclaiming the PPI?

 

As I said earlier in the thread, this was a top up loan, the first did not have ppi because of my employment status, they were pretty insistant that I took the ppi on the top up to 'improve the chance of loan approval', there was a snowballs chance in hell of claiming on the ppi, multi contracts would mean never becoming 'unemployed' & even if I became ill (God forbid) as I employ people I would still receive income from self employment (just mean that I would have a paperwork backlog).

 

Its just very unfortunate that the loan was taken out a couple of weeks before they became 'regulated' (I think they are using this to wiggle out of it).

[Goldlady]

Well we defeated them in court after they issued proceedings. The PPI plus interest meant that we still owed them a few hundred but they backed off and we have heard nothing for a long time. I would have been happy to pay them the amount we genuinely owed but because they did not follow the civil procedure rules their claim failed and we have heard nothing more:p

[beachcomber60]

Well finally got a written response to my letter, they state that the agreement is fully enforceable and the ppi will not be refunded as it was a seperate policy & therefore not included in the actual agreement & it was cancellable at anytime. Also this was pointed out in a letter sent 14th February pointing out that the account would be put on hold for 7 days in order to challenge their decision after which time normal collections would resume - I did not receive this letter and think its a red herring, they enclosed a copy but it looks likes freshly typed.

 

Any ideas

[beachcomber60]

[citizenB]

I would suggest you put together all the information you DO have and make a formal complaint to the Financial Ombudsman and ask for their assistance. You can say GE Woodchester are being obstructive over the ppi issue and can they help please.

 

You could if you wish telephone them first and ask where you stand.

 

If you opt for the complaint to the FOS then let GE Woodchester know that you ahve done and say you will advise the FOS ref number as soon as you have it.