Employer unreasonable for leave for dental appointment

[Allwood]

A friend of mine phoned her employer a day before she was due to start work to let them know that she would have to take off 4 hrs of her shift the next day because she needed to go to the dentist for a toot extraction. She also advised that she would like the following day off as leave becasue she was not sure how she would feel after she had the toot extracted but if she felt OK she would come in for 4 hrs later in the evening. She was told in no uncertain terms that she would not be able to take the time off for her appointment as there were not enough staff to cover her shift.

 

However after a length conversation with the appalling line manger on the phone she agreed to let her have the 4 hrs off for the dentist appointment but no for the following day after. She was told that if she felt too unwell come to work after the extraction the next day then she would have to ring in sick.

 

M y friend feels that this is been very unfair as she will have to ring sick on a 0870 number between 8 and 10am in the morning if she is in pain the following morning to let them know that she will have to take the time off sick. My friend feels she may experience some pain the next day after the appointment but it may ease off during the day and could possibly go into work for 4 hrs doing an evening shift. But this was totally rejected by the line manager, who say that she will have to take the time off sick.

 

Are they trying to get rid of people due to sickness because of the recession, should me friend see some one higer than the line manger that maybe more reasonable and does anyone know what is reasonable about dental appointments. Are we not to leave work to see to our teet despite having to keep smiling and upbeat to customersthat enter the store.

[treechocred]

Most places of work will allow 4 hours for dental/hospital/doctors appointment etc, any other time off will be classed as sick. Unless you can take it as a holiday or unpaid leave?

 

In all honesty though, i would just call in sick and enjoy a day off!

[Allwood]

Thanks for your reply, my friend will be taking the dental appointment of 4 hrs off as leave or will have to work it some other time. However if you take 3 lots of shift off within 3 months the company will reward people with a written warning, lovely company are they allowed to do this, I wonder... and they are making people do 3 or 4 peoples jobs as so many employees have left or were sacked.

[poppynurse]

You seem to be missing the view of the employer in this....if a shift needs a certain number of folk on it then a request for time off the day before will cause issues - the need to ring round the other staff to try and cover for starters. Leave should be booked with ample notice according to local policy again to allow the shifts to be covered. I don't think it was unreasonable to decline the leave request at all. And as for your friend not wanting to phone in sick - sounds like she needs to grow up and take responsibility for herself - employers are not there to cater to the needs of the employee.

 

Most employers would consider a dental appointment should be made outside of work time - unless an emergency. And to be honest if someone took 3 episodes off within 3 months they're lucky to just get a written warning!

[Allwood]

Thank you for your kind reply, my friend works part time and the rest of the time 16 hrs and the rest of her time is for caring. She is over 65 which is not been used as an excuse for have to go for a dental appointment. She got a dreadful toot which needs to be extracted and as I think that you are working in the health service would know how difficult it is to get a NHS dentist. It would do the employer or the employee no good if she had to keep taking pain killing tablets for the pain and this would mean leaving the floor to go up 3 floor to do so, which would be not good for customers as well as it would take at least 5 to 10 minutes to do this.

 

What should people do when they are in pain just put up with it until an employer says they can take their holiday leave to have it treated for just be in pain as they employer or line mangers are not experience it therefore they will just not allowed by their employee off for treatment.

 

Under the current employment policy you are can have leave off if you give say the same amount of notice that you are taking off which was done so, but my friend is a very conscientious person that is why she asked for the holiday leave instead of phoning in sick, which I think employers wants nowadays because they can sack the employee. Perhaps that is the way things heading now a days no right regarding employees as they are so many people just waiting to take their jobs.

[treechocred]

 

What should people do when they are in pain just put up with it until an employer says they can take their holiday leave to have it treated for just be in pain as they employer or line mangers are not experience it therefore they will just not allowed by their employee off for treatment.

 

 

You're friend was given time off for treatment though, 4hours for the appointment. If you're too ill to work phone in sick the next day and risk the written warning or approach your HR department requesting unpaid leave.

 

You can't be sacked for being too ill to work. They can however, sack you for having too many instances of absences within a short space of time, but even then they have to follow certain procedures which takes time, and then you can appeal. I think you are reading too much into this.

[JonCris]

You seem to be missing the view of the employer in this....if a shift needs a certain number of folk on it then a request for time off the day before will cause issues - the need to ring round the other staff to try and cover for starters. Leave should be booked with ample notice according to local policy again to allow the shifts to be covered. I don't think it was unreasonable to decline the leave request at all. And as for your friend not wanting to phone in sick - sounds like she needs to grow up and take responsibility for herself - employers are not there to cater to the needs of the employee.

 

Most employers would consider a dental appointment should be made outside of work time - unless an emergency. And to be honest if someone took 3 episodes off within 3 months they're lucky to just get a written warning!

 

 

Rubbish & when did you last try & get a dental appointment outside working hours that's assuming there is one where you live & you don't have to travel miles to the nearest

 

Dental pain before or after treatment is classed as an emergency & an employer cannot refuse time off They like everyone else have a duty of care to their employees & if this employee injured themselves or anyone else because of pain distraction after being refused time to recover they could find themselves in court dam quick

Edited July 2, 2009 by JonCris

[treechocred]

They haven't refused her time off. The employers have allowed 4 hours for the appointment, and advised her to take sick leave the following day if she is feeling unwell. I fail to see where the employer is acting unfairly here.

[poppynurse]

Here here. If an employee only did 16 hours per week for me and wanted time off for an appointment at short notice I would only permit it if it were an emergency! I would however allow a shift swop if that employee could find someone to swop. I see no issue with being advised to call sick the following day if unwell?

[Allwood]

The employer initially refused until my friend said that she was in dreadful pain and needed to have treatment by a dentist. It was certainly emergency which could not be helped.

 

She was off for one a month ago becasue she was asked to do a lot of work that would not allow her to sit as the OT advised that she should do as when necessary. Despite advising the team leader that she would not be able to do this work she had to due it because there were no staff available to do it and this work was continues for 6 hrs and it was doing 3 peoples work which was physically very hard to do.

 

As a result of above she had to take 8 hrs off work the next day to rest and recover and on her RTW she stated that doing this work caused her to take the time off.

 

The dental appointment will be a second occurrence that will had to take time off within the 3 months period and she wanted to avoid therefore asked for it to be taken as holiday leave, which was refused and she was told ring in sick if she was unwell. My friend feels that her employer wants people to take time off sick so they can be sacked. She certainly was not swinging the led and she like working so why are employers so unreasonable. There is always a shortage of staff.

 

Hopefully I am reading too much into this as mentioned above but time will tell.

 

Poppynurse, I am certainly would not work for someone that is supportingly to be a caring profession that makes quick assessment without knowing all the facts. My friend works for an organisation and their only interest is the shareholders but we are all aware of that but sometimes emergency happens and employees cannot help that, we are all human not robots.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Allwood

[flipper79]

I can understand it's frustrating when from your friends point of view she's tried to come up with a solution that's good for both parties. But I can kind of see the employers point of view aswell. It may well be that after the initial treatment she will be fine to work the following day, whereas if they grant leave she will have those hours off whether she needs them or not. At the end of the day, they're not saying your friend can't have time off if she's ill, they're just insisting that it does go down as sick which is fair enough because that is what it is. Was it only the day before that the actual appointment was made or had she known about it for longer? Could she not have given them more notice or tried to arrange a shift swap as poppynurse suggested?

[poppynurse]

Poppynurse, I am certainly would not work for someone that is supportingly to be a caring profession that makes quick assessment without knowing all the facts. My friend works for an organisation and their only interest is the shareholders but we are all aware of that but sometimes emergency happens and employees cannot help that, we are all human not robots.

 

I was merely pointing out the employers viewpoint. Only the other day I was on the other end of someone phoning in at the last minute and it compromises the service I am able to deliver. I then had to spend a good half hour calling staff and trying to cover the shift - taking me away from what I should have been doing. At the end of the day I do care about staff but I also care about the service and most importantly the patients (customers...) without whom none of us would be in a job.

 

There is no need to be personal -you asked for an opinion and I gave one.

Edited July 2, 2009 by poppynurse

[poppynurse]

Rubbish & when did you last try & get a dental appointment outside working hours that's assuming there is one where you live & you don't have to travel miles to the nearest But the person only works 16 hours a week....shouldn't be too difficult to arrange an appointment for when you re not at work.

 

Dental pain before or after treatment is classed as an emergency & an employer cannot refuse time off They like everyone else have a duty of care to their employees & if this employee injured themselves or anyone else because of pain distraction after being refused time to recover they could find themselves in court dam quick

The time off wasn't refused???

[Allwood]

I can understand it's frustrating when from your friends point of view she's tried to come up with a solution that's good for both parties. But I can kind of see the employers point of view aswell. It may well be that after the initial treatment she will be fine to work the following day, whereas if they grant leave she will have those hours off whether she needs them or not. At the end of the day, they're not saying your friend can't have time off if she's ill, they're just insisting that it does go down as sick which is fair enough because that is what it is. Was it only the day before that the actual appointment was made or had she known about it for longer? Could she not have given them more notice or tried to arrange a shift swap as poppynurse suggested?

 

Yes, it is frustrating when employees tried to help by asking for holiday leave instead of taking sick leave. The employers has notices up stating that employees are taking too many sick leave days and this is also reiterated when they pick up the pay-slips a note is often in it giving details of the time employees have taken off sick within a particular month. My friend contacted her employer when she know of the appointment as she wanted to let them know as soon as possible, she did not wait until the next day when she got into work she phoned them straight away advising of the appointment. She was in great pain and this very surly (line manager was at the end of the phone questioning this). My friend feels that it would no matter how much time her employer had been give they would still be mean regarding her having holiday leave… as the employer wants to dictate to some employees when they will be allowed to take their holiday leave. There is a lot of favouritism in the organization, but the company is so big it is very difficult to prove.

 

I feel also if line managers were a little bit more human and less aggressive this would benefit all concern. Manager should get more training on how to use common sense when dealing with other colleagues as if they cannot be civil to them they certainly are not in a position to deal with customers....

 

But the person only works 16 hours a week....shouldn't be too difficult to arrange an appointment for when you re not at work.

It was an emergency....Apart from being in extreme pain and as mention in my previous posts my friend has the responsibility of caring duties when not working therefore how could she make an appointment for some other time, but of course she could have stayed in pain, which would not have been good for anyone concerned. She is not in an environment where there are medical or dental personnel available to her. If she did not attend the appointment then she would have had to wait another couple of weeks for another one to come up, how would that have helped her or employer or even customers.

 

The time off wasn't refused???

When initially asked for the time on the phone the employer said 'no' therefore it was refused it was only after an exhaustive conversation with an ill trained manage that it was reluctantly granted.

I would like to thank others for their constructive replies which I will let my friend know about when I see her. Many thanks again.

[Allwood]

Unfortunately, my friend was unable to attend work the next day after the dental appointment, her face and neck was swollen.

 

However, my friend had her pay stop for not been able to talk due to her face and neck being swollen after having her tooth extracted. Her payslip said

 

Basic pay: xxxxxx

co. sick pay ADJ £xxxxR

unpaid sick (hrs) 8.00 £xxxx R

Holiday Ad.just 0.22 £ 0.69

 

this seems to be a day pay deducted for been ill,

 

This was taken despite asking for a days leave from her line manager for that particular day which was refused and it only after a lengthy distressing call to a line manager while been in dreadful pain she was given a half days leave for the dental appointment itself as it was an emergency, but not for the day afterwards, now she has to forgo a days pay due not been allowed a days pay. Her company even got the days incorrect. She has been to the HR but the told her that is the company policy but there is no mentioned of it in the employee’s handbook. She was given company instructions on two pages at the time of the meeting with HR, which stated that they do not pay for the first days of absences. She enquired why this was not in the handbook and was told it was but she could see it in the company’s handbook and it could it be access when in the HR office by a member of staff there.

 

As there are lots of these large stores all over the UK therefore should the employees handbook be the same for the UK companies or can individual stores make up their own rules about absences at their premises.

[Sali]

To step into the fray, from my own point of view I can't quite understand why an employee would ask for time off to make a dental appointment when they only work 16 hours a week - I did get the point that they are a carer. If I were the employer I would be somewhat exasperated by the request.

 

However, it seems to me that this person was up front about their intentions - paid time for the appointment and a days leave following.

 

Shouldn't this kind of forward planning be encouraged by the employer, rather than having an employee calling in sick at the last minute and, like Poppynurse experienced, having to waste time finding someone to fill the shift? What kind of message does this send to the other employees?

 

Perhaps the punishment - a pay deduction for being sick - should be introduced into the NHS eh Poppynurse?

[Allwood]

To step into the fray, from my own point of view I can't quite understand why an employee would ask for time off to make a dental appointment when they only work 16 hours a week - I did get the point that they are a carer. If I were the employer I would be somewhat exasperated by the request.

 

However, it seems to me that this person was up front about their intentions - paid time for the appointment and a days leave following.

 

Shouldn't this kind of forward planning be encouraged by the employer, rather than having an employee calling in sick at the last minute and, like Poppynurse experienced, having to waste time finding someone to fill the shift? What kind of message does this send to the other employees?

 

Perhaps the punishment - a pay deduction for being sick - should be introduced into the NHS eh Poppynurse?

 

No, you are quite wrong....it was an emergency, therefore I do not know what you mean saying person was up front.

 

As mentioned above it was only after a lengthy stressful conversation with an ill trained manager that it was agree to let her take 3 hrs holiday leave for the actually dental appointment itself.

 

When the manager was asked for the following day to be holiday leaves as my friend knew that it would be likely that she would have a swollen fact and next due to the surgery, that dreadful manage told my friend that she could not have the extra day leave. She also told my friend that if she was not well enough to go to work then she would have to ring in sick, which of course she had to ring sick due to the surgery the evening before.

 

Now the HR office has cocked up my friend pay by taking unlawful deduction from it.

 

These manager of large store are not very coherent with their staff and should get extra training to gain people skills as well as being able to manager staff as well as being able to talk to them which is a part of their responsibility.

 

This particular manager obviously thought that my friend was trying it on therefore she was judging my friend by her own standards which from all accounts is not good for anyone let along the company.

 

My friend now has now extra stress (apart from her caring duties) to sort out this untrained manager's mess out.

[Sali]

Forgive me Allwood, but in your original post you say that your friend called her employer with a days notice. That to me is forward planning. Although how your friend knew that she would need a tooth extraction the following day without, I presume, having seen a dentist at that stage I don't know. Still, I was being supportive when I said your friend was being 'up front' with her employer about her intentions rather than calling in sick at the last minute.

 

I was also denouncing your friend's employers, as I think the way that they have handled this case will send out a very loud message to other members of staff not to be honest.

 

My final point about the sickness deduction was a jab at the NHS and its very high rates of sickness absence.

 

I'm sure there were bygone days when employers were fair and kind and employees were conscientious and loyal. Now it's just dog eat dog.

[Allwood]

Hi Sali, my friend had the tooth problem for a couple of days and went to the dentist and was told that it needed to be extracted and an appointment was made for her there and then, my friend promptly phoned her employer and asked for the time needed as holidays leave but this tuned out to be a very difficulty conversation, which she could well have done without. If she had called in sick at the last minute it would have been less stressful for my friend, such ashamed that manager do not use any savvied when present with a situation like this.

 

You are correct when you say that my friend employer was encouraging other members of staff not to be honest. As it certainly does not pay in the long run for the employee.

 

I also agree with the last paragraph of your post Sali, it is dog eat dog nowadays and employers know that they can do this with impunity, but it is not good for anyone in the long run.

 

Sorry, that I misunderstood you post.

[Sali]

That's ok. I hope your friend is able to recover her sick pay without too much turmoil, although the employer's track record so far doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

Your friend will now know what to do the next time in such circumstances.

 

Honesty is not always the best policy it would seem.

[Allwood]

Does anyone know -

 

When a company's sick pay adjustments are made should this adjustment be applicable for all the company's stores and be in the company's hand book - or can one the stores of a large company do their own sick pay adjustments without this being in the employees handbook and therefore not be implemented within all the company's stores. :-?

[Allwood]

Anyone............