Glenn Vs Abbey

[Glenn UK]

Right all been an interesting day, went for allocation hearing today.

 

1st a summary of where we are because it will help you understand why i made the decisions i did, in this case there was some errors.

 

Abbey haven't contacted me, apart to threaten me since i started the claim really, until i got their recent letter about amending their defence and saying they weren't going to rely on the limitations act.

 

My feeling was that the allocation hearing would be where they would ask the court to strike out all charges pre six years and so i spent most of my time thinking about possible issues and reading up to make my case for keeping the charges.

 

Guess what i was wrong, they made me an offer 30 minutes before going into court, and i never saw it coming, not that i could have stopped them but it meant basically i swatted up on the wrong thing.

 

So when it came to it the hearing became over interest and default removal.

 

The downfall in my preparation was that i didn't have any case law prepared for unjust enrichment and so couldn't effectively argue my case in legal terms.

 

However, on the positive side the judge felt my arguments about the banks use of my money unlawfully removed were common sense and logical. He never had any precedent to go on and so wasn't go to award it.

 

On the plus side he did point out that Sec69 was discretionary and he may not award any in some cases, he didn't go down that route in my case.

 

The barrister for Abbey decided to correct the judge, the judge wasn't best pleased which was mildly amusing.

 

The Barrister for Abbey had instructions to pay the charges plus 8% APR. Oh many of these charges dated from 1997 We discussed the interest and basically the judge told us to retire to agree the settlement and then return.

 

The barrister didn't know what to do, he told the judge it was difficult because there were so many charges (250 on my schedule i think), the judge offered to lend him a calculator

 

Anyway I made sure that interest id paid was included plus the costs of course, then i mentioned default removal. He took further instruction from Abbey who refused to remove the default.

 

SO back we go to the usher to go into see the Judge. The barrister explained we had agreed most things but there was one thing left which he was instructed to take directions from the court.

 

When the usher came out of the judges chambers the message was don't come back till it is resolved. We explained it was the default and since he hadn't heard anything about this he let us back in :o

 

So the Barrister says we had settled but it was a all my fault because i wanted the default removed and it was too difficult for Abbey to remove it.

 

The judge told him in his experience, there was no problem with default removal. I added my two penneth worth and referred to a previous claim where i had adverses entries removed (or at least they agreed to it have to check). I explained that as the organisation employing the CRAs Abbey were responsible for what was pout onto and taken off of my records and if they instructed the Credit reference agencies to remove it then it would be done.

 

The judge agreed and said to the Barrister if you don't agree to remove the default i will list the claim for the fast track and order standard disclosure go take some further instructions. He did, and Abbey refused.

 

So now the balance of the claim, default removal is to be listed in the fast track with standard disclosure.

 

The judge suggested that in this case the judge was likely to simply order abbey to remove it (my charge value exceed the default entered on my file, plus i short settled and so the value shown is incorrect as it was the full balance outstanding. Oh i should add the default is shown as settled and the judge knew this because i made it clear as did the other side. So all in all the default value is wrong, its less than the value of the charges that is due and so stands a very good chance of being removed, especially when you put standard disclosure into the frame.

 

The barrister for the other side wanted to know if it only applied to this portion of the claim or all of it. The judge was suitably ambiguous so when i get the order ill post and let you know where we are going.

 

SO some positives and some negatives, i have often told people to be prepared to a argue every aspect of their claim. Sadly in my case i failed to take my own advice, or at least could have been better prepared. I wont make that mistake with the next claims and will be including contractual interest.

 

Glenn

[chezt]

Glenn - sounds like an eventful day! Shame about not being fully prepared but it sounds as if you recovered well - also seems like the judge was ok & 'on your side' so that was a plus.

 

Good luck with the next installment - Does this mean you have some of your settlement on it's way now then or do you have to wait again?

[Guest bong]

well done in the circumstances Glenn, wonder why they had to wait until this late to make an offer?! Usual scare tactics I suppose.

 

did they say why they weren't going to rely on the limitation act, or do you have any feeling why they did this?

 

did you get the 8% statutory interest as the barrister had those instructions?

 

do you know why the judge would need to have a precedent case to award contractual interest? what if there had never been such a case before - I would have thought he could have made a judgement based on the case presented?

 

Anyway, a great result for getting charges back to 1997!!! well done!

[Glenn UK]

well done in the circumstances Glenn, wonder why they had to wait until this late to make an offer?! Usual scare tactics I suppose.

 

Im not sure on this, the case didnt follow the 'normal' pattern. I always said that having compund interest, default removal and old charges would make an interesting combination. I thought they were going to try to break te claim into lumps and argue over the old charges. Maybe i revealed my hand too much and gave them sufficent doubt as to whether i could argue effectively. As much as I didnt get everything i wanted today, i was reasonably happy with my first appearacne in front of a judge to argue somehtig significant.

 

did they say why they weren't going to rely on the limitation act, or do you have any feeling why they did this? I think they are worried about losing, Im no barrister but my feeling is that i can argue strongly for concelament and mistakes so i reckon they have come to the same conclusion.

 

did you get the 8% statutory interest as the barrister had those instructions?

 

I didnt get stat i got 8% compounded so not a complete disaster bumped my claim up by 50% or so. And that was their offer which i rejected outside the court.

 

do you know why the judge would need to have a precedent case to award contractual interest? what if there had never been such a case before - I would have thought he could have made a judgement based on the case presented? I can only speculate, but from my experience people are often reluctant to be the first is all im really prepared to say

Anyway, a great result for getting charges back to 1997!!! well done!

 

The bit im looking forward to is getting the default removed:D

[Glenn UK]

Glenn - sounds like an eventful day! Shame about not being fully prepared but it sounds as if you recovered well - also seems like the judge was ok & 'on your side' so that was a plus. Funny thing is i woundt say the judge was on my side, he was quite peeved when i was the only one of the bank claims not to have been settled when he thought i had refused the offer for no good reason. I owuld say he was fair and no more, my feeling is he doesnt suffer fools gladly and Abbey were the bigger of the two fools before him today.

 

Good luck with the next installment - Does this mean you have some of your settlement on it's way now then or do you have to wait again?

 

The cheque will be on its way within 14 days if not ill ask the court for some assistance.

 

Glenn

[Guest bong]

I think that is an excellent result then, 8% compound interest, although I know you're not finished yet.

 

oh yeah, before you get back to the nappies, here's a little card for you http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bear-garden/63785-congratulations-birth-your-baby.html#post542228

[elizabeth1]

Glenn well done there - sounds like you did recover and present your case very well. Hopefully the next stage will bring your money back!!!

 

Congratulations on the birth of your son by the way!! I hope you are all well and happy!!

[philread1]

Sadly in my case i failed to take my own advice, or at least could have been better prepared.

Glenn

Don't be too hard on yourself, Glenn!!!!!!!!

 

I'm only glad that did'nt happen to me, knowing my luck I would'nt of been wearing my brown trousers that day to camouflage the accident!!!!

 

It sounds like you held your own in the court very well indeed, and I admire the work and effort you have put into your case, and all the research you have done as well!!!!!!! This must have all come across to the Judge and (as a shock!!!!) to the Barrister.

 

Anyway, keep us informed with regards to getting your default cleared, and Congrats to you on your new arrival!!!!!!!

Phil:)

[Glenn UK]

Dear All thanks for your kind comments and wishes regards our new son.

 

In truth I am not desperately unhappy, I'm not a barrister and so I don't expect to perform like one. If we had been in my 'environment' I would have been pretty peed off not to win, but thats because i have been doing it for 26 years in one form or another and usually do win.

 

I would expect the barrister to struggle with the issues i have to deal with for the same reasons i struggled with his, ie a lack of experience and knowledge, these can be remedied to an extent however and I will try not to make the same mistakes again.

 

It was a learning experience and thats what I, and I hope others, will take from it. That was the motive for posting, it would have been easy to keep quiet about it bearing in mind my vociferous comments on contractual interest and our right to reclaim it.

 

My views haven't changed I just need to find some case law to support the arguments for next time.

 

Thanks all

 

Glenn

[paulwlton]

Well done Glenn, any idea why they didn't use the Limitation Act.

[livelylad]

Livelylad dons his cap to Glenn.

[Glenn UK]

Well done Glenn, any idea why they didn't use the Limitation Act.

 

They had obviously read my posts!!!!

 

Seriously though i think its very risky for them to get any kind of judgement as to the unlawfulness of their charges.

 

This includes the actual charges and of course the possibility of their concealment and our mistakes in paying them.

 

IMHO i think we have a good case for both concealment and the mistake argument with supporting case law or at least supporting comments from various judges in various limitations act cases.

 

All in all i think they are worried that despite facing rank amateurs their position is so shaky they dare not defend it for fear of the court having the common sense to believe the consumer, the OFT, FSA, et al.

 

Incidentally i feel that I had good arguments against the Doctrine of Laches with supporitng legal comment for a variety of sources so I dont think they would be any happier using that either.

 

We shall see with the next claims against abbey and other banks.

 

Glenn

 

 

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[bish]

Well done Glenn, I think you held your own and showed abbey up for what they are. I am due for allocation hearing on 14th Feb so found this very informative. I know you wanted to get them in court, but at the end of the day we are just amatures at this and perhaps should just put pressure on the people who should be chacing the banks, like the OFT. Well done

 

Regards bish.

[Glenn UK]

Bish if its abbey and you get Mr Edwards hes a nice bloke, but will fight his corner.

 

If there is anything you need by way of support/info feel free to drop me a line.

 

Glenn

 

PS have you got charges older than six years?

[bish]

Hi Glenn

 

Thanks mate, I'm at Kings lynn court and will fight my corner as well, I do have charges that go back further than 6 years, but only because of the issue of the claim was on the 30/08/06, but my initial request for repayment was on 15/06/06. The actual difference in amounts is about £60 which I allowed for when trying to negotiate a settlement with abbey after my first allocation hearing, letter will be presented at court along with the dubious reply. What I will be pressing at the allocation hearing is their non compliance with anything either I requested or the court. I have no problem with defaults as you did and am quite happy to cover interest and all the charges. I was suprised at the depths reached in your hearing as it was just an allocation hearing. Seems to be a new tactic by abbey.

 

Regards bish

[mcuth]

Nice work Glenn - I think you've got Abbey just where you want them

 

Cheers

 

Michael

[Glenn UK]

FWIW

 

If they try to negotiate whilst your waiting before they start make sure you inform them its without prejudice save for costs.

 

I didn't and should have done it may have changed the issues for me, but hey ho you live and learn.

 

Glenn

[bish]

Hi Glenn,

 

I have my allocation hearing on wednesday, what do you feel I need to have to hand on the day, and be primed with regarding regulations etc. Pretty clued up on the basics, but any help and advice appreciated.

 

Regards bish.

[Bigmac versus]

Hi Glenn and you have done really well on this and i for one would like to say its been very informative reading this, well done on your 6 years plus and hopefully your default removal which looks likely to follow.

[Glenn UK]

Hi Glenn,

 

I have my allocation hearing on Wednesday, what do you feel I need to have to hand on the day, and be primed with regarding regulations etc. Pretty clued up on the basics, but any help and advice appreciated.

 

Regards Bish.

 

1st thing is if they try to make an offer before the hearing make sure you say any discussions are 'Without prejudice'. If you don't the first thing they will say to the court is we have made an offer and the claimant has refused to settle.

 

2nd if you haven't had an offer/don't get one then anything which is controversial about your claim you should bone up on.

 

you should make notes of the points you want to put across, for example when it comes to witnesses, no doubt abbey have suggested they want to appoint one.

 

If they have I would object to any so called expert witnesses. The matter of their charges is a factual matter and not one for expert testimony. I would also raise the fact that if they have proposed expert witnesses that they have done in numerous cases but have never nominated a person by name.

 

I'm not sure I'm the best person to give advice other than to say don't miss the opportunity to say anything you feel pertinent. Even if it looks like things are coming to a close or moving off the subject, ask politely if you can say something and make your point. I did a couple of times and never felt the judge was put out by this even though i felt we were going away from something i felt was important.

 

Don't be nervous, easy to say but if you know your stuff then you will be OK.

 

Remember prior planing prevents **** poor performance!

[bish]

Hi Glenn,

 

Thanks for your input, Don't forget that you have been their and whatever you say is relevent to what we all face. I am truly greatful for your insight, and will hopefuly be prepared for the forthcoming hearing. I will keep you posted to the outcome. It is about being prepared and defeating them as a whole that counts. The more cases that get through, the more we can revert back to getting these B******ds hung.

 

Regards bish.

[lofaprize]

Hi,

Ive just started to look on this site and ive had a wee look around.

i have just asked Abbey for my charges to be refunded adding all my statements and given them the 14 days notice or else letter. they have given me a complaints form and told me they could take up to 8 weeks to sort out my complaint!!! :o

what do i do now? do i resend everything or shall i ignore them as was said by another user? or will i contact them again saying the time is running out from the first time i contacted them (6 days ago) or arrrrgh...... what do i do???

please help

[elizabeth1]

Hi,

Ive just started to look on this site and ive had a wee look around.

i have just asked Abbey for my charges to be refunded adding all my statements and given them the 14 days notice or else letter. they have given me a complaints form and told me they could take up to 8 weeks to sort out my complaint!!! :o

what do i do now? do i resend everything or shall i ignore them as was said by another user? or will i contact them again saying the time is running out from the first time i contacted them (6 days ago) or arrrrgh...... what do i do???

please help

 

Hiya Loafaprize and welcome!!

 

Your first step if you haven't already done this is to read through the FAQ's and read through the processes of what you are doing so that you understand each stage etc..

 

Sounds like you already did the first stage "preliminary approach" for the refund or your charges giving them 14 days to explain the charges and return your money?

 

Stick to your own timetable not theirs - after your 14 days is up you need to send the LBA (Letter Before Action) this gives a further 14 days to bank to repay your money etc.. before you file with court for your claim etc.. - you'll find the replies are often stall tactics designed to put you off your own timetables!! Read lots of the Abbey threads - most of the letters are standard replies - just keep on with your timetable!!

 

There is a template library with all the relevant letters you need - they just need editing to your own needs.

 

It's a good idea that you begin a thread of your own in the Abbey forum - this way people can come and help you with your questions and advise you when you need help.

 

Keep reading and asking questions when you need to - you'll find lots of help and support here when you need it!!

[lofaprize]

thank you,

i have started my own thread but no one seemed to be posting. i have been looking through loads of other threads and found out more, lots more. it really is a good idea to read, then read some more.

ive even started to post help to others at the starting stage!

thanks again,

lofaprize

x

[Glenn UK]

lofaprize

 

If you need help on your own thread then the best way to get it is to make a post with a link to your thread in it and ask for some assistance, it also helps if you give an indication of the problem you want answered too.

 

HTH

 

Glenn