Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000

[kitchenboy]

Hi DD

 

Here is a scan of the application form;

 

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p...cationcopy.jpg (the copy sent was very poor)

 

As this is my wife's account, ultimately she is the one who will have to face the judge if it comes to it. So I am having to tread carefully. RMA changed tact very quickly after they sent the application form and began hounding constantly, phoning, letters etc. However haven't heard a peep since asking them nicely to clarify why they think what they sent makes a valid agreement.

 

In response to your questions, yes I can just about make out a reference to personal details "overleaf" and I think pointing out their mess up with the t & c's will be the next step to shut them up when they start shouting again.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. So much to get your head around with the CCA 1974.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Kitchenboy,

 

I know what you mean about getting your head around everything on CCA 1974, but I promise you it gets easier. I only started on CAG in December, and I cannot believe I can now answer some questions - not the expert ones, but at least some.

 

I haven't heard from RMA since their letter in early January. Maybe they know the T&Cs weren't on the back of the agreement, despite the dodgy photocopying job.

 

Your wife's agreement I think is the same as Yeats's. There is a link at the bottom of this page. I'd have a look. He has been served with court papers, but admits to ignoring earlier letters. I don't want to go to court, which is why I'm going to be asking to see the agreement.

 

Alphageek v Amex is just ahead of Yeats so look at that too.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Pelham, or anyone,

 

Any thoughts on the APRs/interest rates?

 

Thanks.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

I think it's time for me to ask to visit my agreement.

 

Is there any reason why I have to do this in writing? I wondered if I just call the person in Customer Services who sent the application form and ask to make an appointment to see it she might just agree to that without reference to someone else who might be more clued up.

 

Their letter enclosing the so called "agreement" is very ambiguous. It says, "Please find enclosed a copy of your original application and terms and conditions for the above account. These documents form the executed agreement between you and Amex."

 

She doesn't say the T & Cs were on the back, but obviously the way they were photocopied was intended to imply this.

 

So should I call or write? Any views?

 

Thank you.

 

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

Is there any reason why I have to do this in writing?

 

Yep! Never talk to them on the Telephone.

 

Even if you get a look, which is 100% unlikely, they'll deny it later if there is no record of your visit!

 

What visit?

 

What Agreement?

 

I'd just stick to the letter writing plan, and build up your case against them one little bit at a time.

 

In terms of the Agreement, it's:

 

(1) Request true copy of properly executed Regulated Credit Card Agreement via s78(1).

 

(2) Request SAR to see what that produces.

 

(3) Keep asking via letter at every opportunity.

 

(4) Consider CPR 31.16 if they have not started a Claim against you, and ask to make a Physical Inspection.

 

(5) Consider CPR 31.14 if they have started a Claim against you, and ask to make a Physical Inspection.

 

(6) Send them an N268 Notice to Prove before the Hearing.

 

(7) Bone up on CPR PD 16 7.3 and The Civil Evidence Act 1995.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi BRW,

 

Thank you for responding so quickly.

 

I think if I do a SAR they will send a copy of the "agreement" again, and my statements which I already have.

 

Is there any reason why I don't write now and ask to see the "agreement"? They haven't start proceedings. At the moment RMA Resolve are trying tor reach me on the phone, and I don't want to speak to them. If I write the letter to Amex I can say I am waiting on them for an appointment.

 

Thanks.

 

DD

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello DD!

 

I think if I do a Subject Access Request they will send a copy of the "agreement" again, and my statements which I already have.

 

The SAR is important, as it will give you another peak at the alleged Agreement, plus copies of Telephone Calls, any Default Notices etc etc...lots of bumf that may come in handy!

 

But the copy they send may be the same, or it may differ in quality. What you are looking for is any sign of changes. If the copy is identical, then this may help to show they have not copied an original document recently. The copies they send are copies of a copy...not a new copy of an original.

 

All useful stuff. All builds up into a better picture of what you are up against.

 

Is there any reason why I don't write now and ask to see the "agreement"? They haven't start proceedings.

 

Two reasons:

 

(1) They'll probably just ignore you if all you do is ask.

 

(2) You will need to think about using CPR 31.16 if they have not started Court Action, in which case there are potential cost implications if you have not exhausted all other avenues first.

 

Please see:

 

why you shouldnt use section 77/78 CCA 1974 if you want the signed agreement

 

The above is specifically one to use before a Court Claim has been issued.

 

If they do issue a Court Claim, then switch to CPR 31.14. Please read why below:

 

Getting Them To Reveal Their Vitals. Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage

 

At the moment RMA Resolve are trying tor reach me on the phone, and I don't want to speak to them.

 

Tell RMA to bog off and to keep things in writing. Send them the No Visitors and No Harassment Warnings at the same time.

 

If I write the letter to Amex I can say I am waiting on them for an appointment.

 

See above. Explore SAR, then CPR 31.16, then CPR 31.14 etc.

 

If Amex don't have the original, they will not let you near them to find this out. Instead they'll bluff and bluster, and will push it all the way hoping you will buckle and roll over.

 

Cheers,

BRW

Edited February 13, 2009 by banker_rhymes_with
Can't Spell!

[pelham9]

I have looked at your post #21 and I can see your difficulty and the reason is simple or better simple interest !!

 

It is not right to use *12 and /12 in most interest calculations because these are simple interest methods. You need to use compound interest methods.

 

Schedule 1 of the 1983 regs reqires credit cards to show

 

A) The interest to be applied as an annual rate

 

B) The method of application of the annual rate.

 

C) The %APR though in some circumstance it does not need to be disclosed.

 

So in your "agreement" - if you have a valid one - they have not shown A) and B)

 

This makes it improperly executed but it could be enforced in court.

 

Credit cards are supposed to work from an annual rate and calculate a monthly rate by compound methods. They then apply the monthly rate on a daily basis to arrive at the interest amount to be charged monthly. Interest is added monthly so it is compounded monthly.

 

(Note the annual rate is NOT the %APR. and %APR is not a prsecribed term and does not satisfy the prescibed term for interest.)

 

It is very unusual for a credit card to show a monthly rate so simple as 1.2% and that figure is highly suspicious. When you take a 12th root of any number it nearly always results in a decimal with an infinite recurrence. so very likely 1.2% monthly is a rounded or truncated figure.

1.2% is equivalent to an annual rate of 15.3894...% and this can be approximated as %APR 15.4%.

 

There are many problems with these interest rates and I think it sensible at this stage to write and tell them you are suspicious. Ask them first why if they think the Ts & Cs they sent are part of an agreement they do not show the annual rate as requred by the CCA 1974 1983 regs. I bet you they say they have shown the %APR so they have shown the annual rate - that is a lie.

 

By doing this now they may consider that with no agreenent it is not worth them getting into a discussion on interest rates and stop bothering you. This is particularly likely if they know their rates are wrong or a fraud.

 

It would be nice if you could scan the documents and post them via a PDF or photo bucket. New scanners are £30+ but it might well be possible to pick one up cheaply secomd hand.

[Desperate Daniella]

Pelham,

 

Thank you so much for your time on this. Your understanding of this is absolutely awesome.

 

I've taken about 100 photos to upload on to photobucket, but the print is so fine that even if it looks okay on the camera when I transfer to the computer it's blurred. Will try to organize a scanner asap.

 

I had always thought the annual percentage rate actually meant the annual rate.

 

I am wondering if the annual percentage rate they are quoting of 9.3% is therefore based on doing the whole year at 0.75% per month which clearly can't be correct for the whole year if that was only for the first six months.

 

I also found today that someone else on CAG has the same form as me and the copy they received had nothing photocopied on the back. They were sent separate T & Cs, pages of them, with other discrepancies.

 

Thank you again. I will write as you suggest.

 

DD

[pelham9]

I had always thought the annual percentage rate actually meant the annual rate.

 

You were in good company. Probably 95% of people including lawyers and judges think so too.

 

The annual rate cannot be the %APR because

 

a) The %APR is an approximation of the annual rate to one decimal place.

 

b) if there are compulsory charges these have to be included in the %APR so it cannot express the annual rate at all

 

I am wondering if the annual percentage rate they are quoting of 9.3% is therefore based on doing the whole year at 0.75% per month which clearly can't be correct for the whole year if that was only for the first six months.

 

 

Probably right but lets see the Ts &Cs first.

 

Your main case is that they have not sent you a proper agreement. But they will almost certainly maintain that thaey have done so. However if you start questioning the interest rates they might well give up because they know they have not done it right and there may be a fraud present.

We need those Ts & Cs posted!

[Desperate Daniella]

Thank you, Pelham,

 

I am working on the scanner.

 

I have done a very short letter about what they have sent and asking your first question about why the annual rate isn't shown as required by CCA 1974 1983 regs.

 

This keeps correspondence going with Amex, so if I get calls from anyone else I can honestly say I have issues which I have taken up with Amex and I am waiting for their reply.

 

DD

[cashins]

so if I get calls from anyone else I can honestly say I have issues which I have taken up with Amex and I am waiting for their reply.

 

 

Interesting comparisome in that, as a 'Cagger' you consider honesty important, something sadly lacking in many of the companies we deal with!!!

 

David

[Desperate Daniella]

Especially if they are doing their cut and paste jobs!

 

Actually if they phone and I haven't sent the letter, I tell them, and say that I haven't had a chance to print it yet but my points are ......

 

Amex wrote to me in early December so in my letter today I apologized for the delay in my response and said it was due to the delay in getting the legal advice I needed!!

 

And then asked them Pelham's wonderful annual interest rate question. It was a very short letter, just two questions, so let's see what they come up with.

 

DD

[pelham9]

You really must post the original documents that they claim are your agreement.

 

Scanners particularly second hand are cheap these days. Cannot you borrow a scanner from somebody or at least borrow the use of a scanner -the resultting files are easily transportable.

 

Once you have the files you can use Photobucket or bertter still a PDF file

(Acrobat free download) to post it. PDF files are better as they are scaleable on a computer.

 

Photos via Photobucket just do not work.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Pelham,

 

Thank you for your concern.

 

I used a scanner yesterday and have pdfs and will try and upload later today. However, I seriously wonder if they are going to be readable. I can read the paper copy - it's not illegible - but the size of the print is about half-pinhead size. We tried to blow it up but that just made it illegible.

 

Thank you again,

 

Daniella

[Elgrand]

Hi Daniella,

 

Just a quick note to see how your getting on!!!

 

I posted my response to amex using the suggestions from yourself and Davey and await their reply.

Will post up once I have a response.

 

Elg

[Desperate Daniella]

 

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi everyone,

 

Tried last week to upload images of scanned documents and managed to crash the entire computer by trying to download software from the internet to improve images!!!!!, so I am on a temporary one for now which allows me to access emails and get internet access but not much else. My wonderful computer consultant went on holiday on the day it crashed and isn't back until 14th April.

 

I have now received another copy of the same front of application form, with terms and conditions from the time, and this time their current terms and conditions as well.

 

In my last letter I asked them two specific questions:

 

1. Why is there no annual rate given? (As suggested by Pelham.)

 

2. Where exactly did the terms and conditions appear?

 

They have completely ignored these questions.

 

 

As I won't be in a position to try scanning the documents in for at least another fortnight, is there anything as far as dodgy/inaccurate APRs go that can be gleaned from the figures that I have given in my typed up version above?

 

The APR was given as 9.3% which is clearly wrong because the original application was based on an introductory rate for six months.

 

I am wondering whether to write them a quick letter asking again for the answers to the questions above just to keep in correspondence with Amex themselves.

 

Any ideas gratefully received.

 

DD

[shakespeare62]

I have looked at your post #21 and I can see your difficulty and the reason is simple or better simple interest !!

 

It is not right to use *12 and /12 in most interest calculations because these are simple interest methods. You need to use compound interest methods.

 

Schedule 1 of the 1983 regs reqires credit cards to show

 

A) The interest to be applied as an annual rate

 

B) The method of application of the annual rate.

 

C) The %APR though in some circumstance it does not need to be disclosed.

I believe the requirement for the interest rate to be shown in schedule 1 as an “annual rate” only came into force via the Consumer Credit Agreements (Amendment) Regulations 2004 [ SI 2004/1482 ] in force May 31st 2005 (see :-

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20041482.htm

 

In the original 1983 'regs, Schedule 1 , section 10, column 2 simply states :-

 

"(1) the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement"

The original 1983 regs still differentiate the interest rate from APR because APR is listed in a separate section - section 15 of schedule 1

Edited April 5, 2009 by shakespeare62
removed blank lines

[shakespeare62]

have you checked the default notice ?

[Elgrand]

Hi DD,

 

I don't know if this is of any help, but I.ve just posted on my amex thread what looks like a leaflet of some terms that they have sent me claiming to be original.

On your post 17, i noticed it finished with Governing Law and two sentences. On this leaflet, that goes on to list a lot more after that, which would not fit onto the back of your application.

 

Another thing, you state chip and pin para 14. What year did that start? Not 2000 was it?

 

Have a look and see and let me know if you have any questions.

A longshot maybe.

 

Elg

Edited April 30, 2009 by Elgrand
added text

[Desperate Daniella]

Thanks, for that Elg.

 

I'll have a look and get back to you.

 

Wrote again asking where these Conditions were supposed to be and also asking about securitisation (Davey77's thread - he wrote about three weeks ago to them about that issue and hasn't had a reply.

 

Back later.

 

DD

[Elgrand]

Ignore that bit above, it said card and pin (Doh)

Edited April 30, 2009 by Elgrand
Sorry me not reading properly

[Elgrand]

Hi DD.

 

Just copied a quote from you on Davey's thread

 

Shall I wait for the reply, or shall I write again saying that I now KNOW the t&cs were lifted from a leaflet and not in the body of the agreement.

It appears that they have been taken from a leaflet or trifold, BUT I would not say we know that for certain.

Just being a bit cautious.

 

Elg.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Elg,

 

You are probably right. I haven't had a chance to do anything over the weekend.

 

Still haven't heard from them, but Davey wrote before me asking about the securitisation issue - he hasn't had an answer, and maybe that's why I haven't either.

 

DD