Double glazing firm want frames back

[tonym2]

Hi I had a bay window fitted in the summer during which the fitters caused structural damage to the bay. I had structural report completed and showed this to them and they denied causing it. They did however agree to try and fix the problem which took them four months to arrange. They did not fix the problems and I have refused to pay them anything.

 

The problem I am having now is that I have had quotes to fix the work using the frames that were installed at the time but the original contractors say I cannot use their frames as I have not payed for them. I have tried to be reasonable and told them I will pay them what is left after repair but they will not accept this. They are saying that I cannot do anything with their frames without permission.

 

I was just wondering if anyone had any advice on my legal position. I know I am protected by goods and services act but that only mentions being entitled to repair or refund. Am I allowed to use their frames? I am going to citizens advice on Monday but was wondering if anyone had any thought in the interim.

Cheers

Tony

[gyzmo]

There are two different issues here.

 

The first is the work they have carried out to which they are entitled to be paid for.

The second is the damage caused for which you seek recompense.

 

What you are doing is refusing to adhere to one on the basis of the other. That, IMHO, is a dangerous game.

 

Its one of those seemingly silly situations whereby the ends are the same but the method varies slightly.

 

Lets say you buy something in a shop and you only get change of a fiver instead of a tenner. That would not entitle you to nick a pack of Silk Cut to make up for the loss.

 

What will be needed is to pay them and put in a claim for the damages incurred. It's the long pedantic way round it, but I believe something the courts would expect.

 

Just btw, there is a section in SoGA on rights of the unpaid seller.

 

Do go to the CAB taking all documents, contracts and communications though. They will be in a better position to help.

[tonym2]

I think I should have been more clear what is being disputed here is not the work they have done but the frames. The work their fitters did was shocking and that is without the structural damage. The whole upstairs bay has sunk. This caused one window to bow, and the downstairs sill to buckle. I dont think even these guys would be silly enough to claim that they should be paid for the work they did. They just want their frames or to be paid for them before I use them again.

 

I have been quoted a massive amount for repair with new frames. I cannot afford to pay for it. I have already paid for a structural report and fenestration surveyor fees. If I had paid them anything I would basically now be in real trouble.

[gyzmo]

The same principles still apply - apologies if I caused any confusion.

 

You could send them a cheque and write on it "paid under protest". It will be perfectly challengeable later. But best to wait to see what the CAB advise.

[tonym2]

haha - im sorry dude but that has to be the worst piece of advice I have ever heard. If I sent them a cheque thats the last I would ever see of them or that money. I have a right to withhold all money until the job is done satisfactorily. I have an expensive report and the testimony of an fenestration surveyor who both say they totalled my property, and you are telling me to write them a cheque saying 'paid under protest'. That would be the understatement of the century for six months of hell. (you dont work for them do you?)

 

The company wrote to me and even suggested that they will just have their frames back and cancel the contract and that I can get someone else to install windows. Thats fine but what about the damage? I would go in to heavy debt than send these guys money. I akso know that if I took them to court and won damages they wouldnt pay up. Thats the kind of guys i have got mixed up with, proper cowboys.

[Gilbert_O'Sullivan]

why are you asking for advice then tonym2 if what you are told is rubbish? seems like you got all the answers anyway.

 

what did you employ cowboys for in the first place? what guarantee of work have you got?

[ukaviator]

Under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, you as a consumer of goods and services are provided with certain rights. If your installation is not completed to a reasonable standard using the care and skill of an experienced company, then the Act should be able to help you. If you do encounter problems and your double glazers have not fixed them after your request to do so, you would be entitled to bill the firm the reasonable cost of having the work done elsewhere.

 

Did you sign a completion note or a note stipulating your satisfaction with the job?

 

Are they covered by:

 

FENSA Limited (Fenestration Self-Assessment Scheme)

44-48 Borough High Street

London

SE1 1XB

UK

Tel: 0870 780 2028

Fax: 020 7407 8307

 

or

 

Glass and Glazing Federation

44-48 Borough High street

London

SE1 1XB

UK

Tel: 0870 042 4255

Fax: 0870 042 4266

 

You could complain to these people to see what can be done.

[poppynurse]

I personally would let them sue me for the outstanding invoice - then whack in a counterclaim for the damage, expert reports and restitution.

[GreatWonder]

I have a right to withhold all money until the job is done satisfactorily.

 

My parents witheld payment for a bodged patio. The patio company took my parents to small claims court and they were told they had to pay up.

 

I don't know the if's where's and why's, but that's what happened.

[tonym2]

A few points raised and thanks to everyone who has replied. I would say that I didn't know they were cowboys until the work was poor and they turned nasty when they weren't payed - thy basically came round and admitted everything that was wrong but told me that they would lie and say all damage was there before the work if I didnt pay.

 

They are Fensa registered but not GGF which is a shame because I think the GGF would be more help. They have a formal complaints procedure. Fensa told me that I can complain but they will only help to clarify to the installer the regulations they have in place - they do not get involved. Saying that though I will get back in touch now the situation has come to a halt. I did not sign anything, it was obvious immediately of the problems so as I have said before I just want to know my legal position.

 

And poppynurse thanks for your reply - this is exactly what I was going to do until I had a letter from the firm saying they wanted frames back and that I couldnt touch the installation until they said so. I could just ignore what they are saying but Im thinking this will make me seem unreasonable if the case goes to court. I have decided that I want to be proactive in this case as well now. I have been pushed around a bit up until now. I had to wait four months for them to come and do repairs and I should have demanded that they make it a priority at the time when they said they were too busy. I think this is why they are still trying to now. I just need a solicitor to confirm things for me so I don't rush in to anything I regret. But I was given exactly the same advice by the firm who are doing the repair work.

[tonym2]

My parents witheld payment for a bodged patio. The patio company took my parents to small claims court and they were told they had to pay up.

 

I don't know the if's where's and why's, but that's what happened.

 

Exactly GreatWonder that is what I am worried about. I dont want to do anything risky. As I have said above I dont want to get or afford new frames but they have put in writing that I can do that and give them their frames back so if that is the best thing to do then i take take them to court for compensation.

[patdavies]

I think that I might be tempted to send them a cheque for a couple of hundred pounds and invite them to sue for the rest.

 

That would, IMO, give you sufficient title to the frames (pending any court case) to go ahead with the remedial works.

 

Once they are completed, either use the invoice for that in your counter-claim if the sue you; or sue them for the total of the invoice (but expect a counter claim for their contracted amount)

[tonym2]

It is a strange one this because in most cases people will have paid and then obviously send the bill or sue for the cost of remedial work. Its as if really by not having paid you are not really in a much stronger position. I think this is something along the lines of what gyzmo was saying really - and ill take this opportunity to to apologise for rather shooting him down in flames when he was only giving an opinion on a limited knowledge of the facts, so sorry and thanks for the input;)

 

Its funny that you should suggest that I send a cheque for 200 patdavies because I worked out what the cost of all deductions and remedial work will cost, and from the original invoiced amount this will leave £193 for the contractor. So I could round it up.

But you are right it is title to the frames that I am worried about. Its strange because he has taken my old windows away which were fine but old and replaced them. Its like you think there must be some precedent in law when someone cant just rock up to your house and wip something out of yours and then replace them with a disaster area and then they have legal title on the frames. What about my old frames, cant you come back and put them in please? Its fine if they do a good job etc - but seriously it is a bit of a nightmare.

 

I tentatively asked about giving the contractors what was left and they refused this and thats before they knew how much it was. I think that will have to go in writing with exact amounts ect and a few threats now. I was advised elsewhere that I send them the cheque and say that by cashing this that ends all contract between us, but I dont know about that. I think I have a good case whichever way it goes really its just that im more concerened that these windows arent really installed fully just sealed up with gaffer tape. And then Im sure I could claim for some form of damages for the inconvenience. We shall see.

[gyzmo]

haha - im sorry dude but that has to be the worst piece of advice I have ever heard. If I sent them a cheque thats the last I would ever see of them or that money. I have a right to withhold all money until the job is done satisfactorily. I have an expensive report and the testimony of an fenestration surveyor who both say they totalled my property, and you are telling me to write them a cheque saying 'paid under protest'. That would be the understatement of the century for six months of hell. (you dont work for them do you?)

 

The company wrote to me and even suggested that they will just have their frames back and cancel the contract and that I can get someone else to install windows. Thats fine but what about the damage? I would go in to heavy debt than send these guys money. I akso know that if I took them to court and won damages they wouldnt pay up. Thats the kind of guys i have got mixed up with, proper cowboys.

 

You're sorry dude? Well I'm not.

 

I had a very similar scenario in on of my exams. I got t82% for it (btw - that is a distinction). Follow my advice or do not, I am not telling you what to do.

 

But when you ask for help on the basis that you do not know what to do, and someone psts advice on what they think is a good thing to do based on their knowledge and experience, then mock at your peril.

 

I hope it works out for you. Like I said, it is better to go to the CAB with all your documents so that they can see the full picture.

 

But I would be a bit more respectful of the people from whom you request help.

[pt2537]

I think that you need to seek serious legal advice on this matter

 

Gyzmo has given you some good guidance and he is right that merely witholding payments is likely to land you in trouble.

 

You have a claim undoubtedly but the old adage two wrongs dont make a right is worth bearing in mind

 

We clearly dont have all the facts here, so , in view of this, i would advise a trip to the CAB or a local solicitor who offers 30 min consultation for free

[tonym2]

Yeah my post was a bit strong, and when i reread it I realised. I wasnt really what I was trying to say. I think these things become personal - someone comes into your home disrespects it and then bills you for the pleasure it is hard not to become emotional. I do respect your advice and may find at that the end of this that I should have followed it.

[tonym2]

I think that you need to seek serious legal advice on this matter

yes

 

Gyzmo has given you some good guidance and he is right that merely witholding payments is likely to land you in trouble.

no he hasnt, i doubt i would get in to trouble when a judge saw the photographs and report

 

You have a claim undoubtedly but the old adage two wrongs dont make a right is worth bearing in mind

I thought this was a consumer forum. I have the right to withhold payment until I am satisfied.

 

You do have pretty much all the facts now. Two wrongs dont make a right? what on earth are you talking about?

[pt2537]

yes

 

 

no he hasnt, i doubt i would get in to trouble when a judge saw the photographs and report

Then let them take you to court, trust me, i do this type of work on a daily basis

 

I thought this was a consumer forum. I have the right to withhold payment until I am satisfied. Ok , it is a consumer forum correct, so what legal basis do you believe that you have to withold payment?

 

You do have pretty much all the facts now. Two wrongs dont make a right? what on earth are you talking about? exactly that, yes the builder is at fault undoubtedly. however, i am saying that by withholding payment you are placing yourself in a difficult position and giving the builder a right of action against you, by all means carry on i have no problem with that, but i am saying that it is not the correct way to go

 

Im not sure what it is we can help you with, undoubtedly you have made your decision, so please let us know when you recieve the claim form and we will try to help you defend it. however you could do the right thing and bring this matter before the court and seek damages but it seems you dont want to do this,

 

As i said, go see a lawyer, i cannot help you further and the way you have replied well................

[gyzmo]

Yeah my post was a bit strong, and when i reread it I realised. I wasnt really what I was trying to say. I think these things become personal - someone comes into your home disrespects it and then bills you for the pleasure it is hard not to become emotional. I do respect your advice and may find at that the end of this that I should have followed it.

 

Very easy to get wound up about these things. You want to see my flatmate when it happens to him (actually, you don't - it aint pretty!).

 

I understand fully that these things are very frustrating and you wonder why the hell you should give any quarter.

 

But a court, if it came to them, would not see it that way. It is on that basis that I post my advice. I look at all the worst case scenario, look at all the problems that could arise, think about it being me and what I would do.

 

I do not take risks. When I do something, I make damned sure I am in no position to lose. It does mean that I lose in the short term (as in this scenario by paying out), but I know that at the end of the day, the battle will be lost, but not at the expense of the war.

 

That, unless you are in real dire straits (spell check please) is the way to go about things.

 

At the very least send them a cheque for a fiver. that way they are not "unpaid". It becomes a contractual issue for which they will have to take you to court.

 

That will wrap them up for a good few months at least.

 

But in the good name of God see the CAB first!

[tonym2]

seriously guys, these contractors have had it and they know it. What they are most concerned with is getting their frames back. What sort of business does that. They are just trying to be irritating. They are not asking to be paid fully for the contract. Again, they have told me they are happy for me to get an alternative contractor to fit windows for me but they want frames back. Again what kind of business does that. I have had no demand for money. Of course they could take legal action and they could win.

 

Again I must stress I have had no demand for money just that I am not allowed to use their frames and that they want them back. This is what I was asking about. Not about whether I should pay the for the work. I am asking about my legal position over the frames. I have all of what they have said in writing. I could go out tomorrow get new frames and install them and that is that - they have put this in writing.

 

As for answers and for making decisions, I have none and have made none. I am asking about my position in regard to the frames. I have had no demand for money. The company admit that the installation was rubbish, they deny damage but they are going to do that in case I do sue them. I intend to do this in the right way and I have not already made up my mind. Otherwise I just would have gone ahead and just had remedial work done and then dealt with other issues. Of course I want to bring this before a court and claim damages but just telling me to hand over thousands and expect to get that back after these guys behaviour so far? Am I expected to pay these people for the work when even they have not asked for it yet. They have asked for money for frames. I could get new frames and then still be hit for a compensation claim but I have to imagine that by common sense that if the company has offered that I do this in writing, it is hardly going to stand up in court.

 

A partner in the company turned up and told me he was appalled at the work - it had been contracted out by them because they were so busy. And guys I am sorry I am thankful for all input. My anger is towards my situation not the dudes who offer advice here. I am pretty sure you all know what you are talking about. Oh and im a bit ****ed so that is the explanation for previous post:D I do appreciate all input.

[tonym2]

But a court, if it came to them, would not see it that way. It is on that basis that I post my advice. I look at all the worst case scenario, look at all the problems that could arise, think about it being me and what I would do.

 

I do not take risks. When I do something, I make damned sure I am in no position to lose. It does mean that I lose in the short term (as in this scenario by paying out), but I know that at the end of the day, the battle will be lost, but not at the expense of the war.

 

That, unless you are in real dire straits (spell check please) is the way to go about things.

 

At the very least send them a cheque for a fiver. that way they are not "unpaid". It becomes a contractual issue for which they will have to take you to court.

 

That will wrap them up for a good few months at least.

 

But in the good name of God see the CAB first!

 

Had a few- please excuse any silliness on my part tonight. The above quoted pretty much sums it all up for me. I do not want to take any risks. I had remedial work ready to go then received letter and thought twice. Its about title to the frames. By no means do I wish for them to go unpaid totally. But I am in the position where I am offering what is left after all my expenses but they will not accept it - obviously know what they are doing here. This advice is really interesting because yes I can see now what you mean. Before court you have to show presumably that you have acted reasonably at all times to be successful. I don't want to to pay for whole contract but yes I could ask them for a price on their frames if that is what they want and then pay that - and then make a claim for damages. Does this make more sense gyzmo? Its not that I am just not prepared to pay anything - just not for the whole contract? maybe these guys know what they are doing more than I thought

 

I obviously just need legal advice which I will get in the week.

[raydetinu]

Get a quote for all the work including new windows, sue them for that then when you win, you can get the work done and then they can have their windows back.

No judge is going to let them take back and leave you with no windows and loads of damage.

[tonym2]

Get a quote for all the work including new windows, sue them for that then when you win, you can get the work done and then they can have their windows back.

No judge is going to let them take back and leave you with no windows and loads of damage.

 

A good idea but the current installation is unfinished. They are sealed up with gaffer tape and there are other problems that I wont go into - ive noticed that the bay soaking up water because they are obviously not yet sealed on the outside yet properly.

 

We sent them packing when they arrived for the second days work. They had agreed to follow a method set out by my surveyor. This involved putting straps to anchor the bay back to the house. They didnt do anything, just took the windows and reinstalled them square(which is nuts) basically the bay had dropped taking frames with it. This means that although the windows werent sloping or bowing anymore there was a massive gap between the bay and the windows. The windows had been propped up on packers - I suppose they were going to fill the gap in but it would have looked shocking. For some reason the lead around the sill had been cut away and this needs to be replaced as well.

 

That is another thing I can hold against them. They agreed in writing to follow the method set out by my surveyor. Seems crazy that I even let them try now but I believe you have to give them a chance to repair or replace for any faults if they are willing. They are saying they did no damage in correspondence but they agreed to try and fix it - that is strange.

[raydetinu]

I would just go ahead and do the repairs if you are happy to keep the windows.

Part of their contract was to fit the windows satisfactorily, which they have not. You have a report and I presumme lots of photos.

When the work is done sue them for the cost of the repairs then you can offset the cost of the windows. Or they can sue you for the window cost and you can counter claim for the repsirs.

[tonym2]

I would just go ahead and do the repairs if you are happy to keep the windows.

Part of their contract was to fit the windows satisfactorily, which they have not. You have a report and I presumme lots of photos.

When the work is done sue them for the cost of the repairs then you can offset the cost of the windows. Or they can sue you for the window cost and you can counter claim for the repsirs.

 

Yes this is what I was going to do but just got to get professional advice.

I was going to offer them in a letter the remainder of money, if they don't accept I would sue them for repair work and damages for inconvenience and other costs and tell them to take the cost of the windows out of that. Aint a risk taker though so need to check.