attention all rbs/natwest breaches of 77/78 requests under the cca 1974

[2Grumpy]

Allowing the recreation of agreements isn't part of the 1974 act - if it exists anywhere it would be a SI.

It might be just that the OFT said that it was OK.

Wherever it is, at best it would just be for the s77-79 request. Even then, there must be the presumption that they have enough info to get it right and that a bank would not just take a guess & produce any old document & T&Cs!

Who's using loopholes now?

[Dipply75]

Think I'll be joining in also for my OH. He handed his CCA request for his unsecured 2005 loan into the branch on Friday 31st Oct. This was with his complaint - nothing from them yet, not a dickie bird.

 

The reason I really want to see it is, now that I know a bit more, the figures do not add up. When he was offered the loan he was quoted 5.9% - thought this was a great deal and went in to see them. When he came home after signing I cracked up because the agreement stated 6% something. We argued, he was still happy with the deal so let it go.

 

I have had a look and he seems to be paying way more than that - I still have the original somewhere (self confessed hoarder) and am dying to see what they supply.

 

As for re-creating agreements - WTF? This thread is a great idea as the only way to prove the OFT wrong is to prove that the bank's document control is in no way accurate or consistent enough to warrant that amount of leeway and trust. They might let the odd 'genuinely lost' agreement pass - but when it becomes habit?

 

Arrogant buggers:mad:

[paulwlton]

Allowing the recreation of agreements isn't part of the 1974 act - if it exists anywhere it would be a SI.

It might be just that the OFT said that it was OK.

Wherever it is, at best it would just be for the s77-79 request. Even then, there must be the presumption that they have enough info to get it right and that a bank would not just take a guess & produce any old document & T&Cs!

Who's using loopholes now?

 

Well worth a listen.

 

BBC - Radio 4 You and Yours -Royal Bank of Scotland debt mistake

[WelcomeItAint!]

Surely RBS cannot get away with this ??

[underdog13]

They get away with it until someone can prove they are guilty of fraud.....

 

Go get 'em Caggers;)

[WelcomeItAint!]

Bang out or Order that is - makes me wanna go get my lender all the more !!

[REST ON A SUNDAY]

it appears that in 2000 the NatWest cards were issued by

 

NatWest Card Services

see

 

NatWest Card Services CRM Strategy Increases Profits With Prime Response Integrated Marketing Solution; NatWest Cards' CRM Investment Will Offer a Return in First Year | Business Wire | Find Articles at BNET

 

 

"CAMBRIDGE, Mass.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 11, 2000

NatWest Card Services, the major credit card issuer in the United Kingdom, has recognized some exciting results from its CRM strategy, through its use of Prime Response's (NASDAQ, EASDAQ: PRME), integrated marketing solution, Prime Vantage. NatWest Cards is one of the first organizations to quantify the impact of deploying its CRM strategy and demonstrate a strengthened relationship with its customers."

 

however by 2001 the amended nat west credit card terms and conditions referre to "we, us ,our "as national westminster bank plc

 

despite this triton in the future (a few years later )were to refer to our client as "NatWest card services" ??????

 

the word assignment comes to mind

 

has anyone got an old agreement to see who the early agreements were between ?

[REST ON A SUNDAY]

having just referred to the NatWest notice of variation of the t & C issued in march 2006

 

it now defines "we,us our " as national westminster bank plc , and any person our rights and duties may be transferred to.

 

meaning the early t & c did not say

 

and any person our rights and duties may be transferred to.

 

 

 

 

draw your own conclusions what that means :grin::grin::grin:

[REST ON A SUNDAY]

having looked at a very old rbs application form (1990's) for a mastercard credit card it does not say anywhere who the agreement is between

which in my humble opinion invalidates it ??i

[underdog13]

Interesting points ROAS; if I ever receive my application form/agreement from 1998, I'll take a look and let you know. It's been two months since my request - silence except for admitting they had received the request and then lots of letters demanding payment whilst the account was in dispute;) Tut, tut, RBS:D

[2Grumpy]

Where they have then reconstructed a "True Copy" that differs materially from the original (or there was no original) and said that you must pay based upon their production of that.

 

Since that reconstruction is not based on the original and it is incorrect, I have already suggested that what they are doing might be fraudulent.

 

But further, because it is the bank's policy to reconstruct the "True copy" and then demand payment when they can't find the original agreement (there is a copy of an in-house magazine boasting of this around here somewhere), this might constitute conspiracy to defraud, where the group who approved this policy plus any managers / directors who were aware of it (that would be lots of them) might be in the mire.

I think I need to put together a well-reasoned, clear & concise complaint to give to the boys in blue and a last chance type letter to NatWest to withdraw their demand.

I'm sure that NatWest won't back down - they never do except at the last minute, but I think that they will mis-understand that this is their last chance if the police get involved - but I will enjoy supplying a list of those who might risk a significant fine / jail time

[jack508]

Hello to All

I have waited almost 3 years for my true copy of CCA, i have been chased by no fewer than six different Debt Collecting Agents, once i ask for the CCA they never come near me again. I would like to know if there is a time scale on this, ie: after a certain time without producing the right documents are they still allowed to chase the debt or does it become unenforcable?

 

Jack508

[Josie8]

Hello to All

I have waited almost 3 years for my true copy of CCA, i have been chased by no fewer than six different Debt Collecting Agents, once i ask for the CCA they never come near me again. I would like to know if there is a time scale on this, ie: after a certain time without producing the right documents are they still allowed to chase the debt or does it become unenforcable?

 

Jack508

 

 

6 years from last payment or acknowledgment of debt

[underdog13]

3 years!!!!!! I'm getting twitchy as my CCA hasn't materialised after 2 months, lol. Patience never was one of my virtues:D

[robcag]

 

has anyone got an old agreement to see who the early agreements were between ?

 

Hi REST ON A SUNDAY ;-)

 

Sorry I can't help with an agreement or T&Cs, but how old is old?

 

My NatWest credit card started it's life as an 'Access' card, you remember, the old 'flexible friend'

 

I have statements going back to 1987 and possibly earlier if I have a good dig.

 

Cheers

Rob

[vexlitigant]

Thanks for your input so far:grin:

 

Counting in the caggers so far

 

Me, for loans, credit card and naughty naughty no agreement for advantage gold account services. In fact they have never sent me any agreement whatsoever:rolleyes:

 

2Grumpy

underdog13

Paul Wilton ( and he knows of 5 more)

Fedup

Neilap

Oscar52

 

There must be hundreds more:grin:

 

 

Hi HHNF

 

Add me to that list (and sorry for joining the discussion so late)

[Josie8]

A further thought that I have already posted in another thread:

 

Where they have then reconstructed a "True Copy" that differs materially from the original (or there was no original) and said that you must pay based upon their production of that.

 

Since that reconstruction is not based on the original and it is incorrect, I have already suggested that what they are doing might be fraudulent.

 

But further, because it is the bank's policy to reconstruct the "True copy" and then demand payment when they can't find the original agreement (there is a copy of an in-house magazine boasting of this around here somewhere), this might constitute conspiracy to defraud, where the group who approved this policy plus any managers / directors who were aware of it (that would be lots of them) might be in the mire.

 

Grumpy

 

 

Excellent point..............

[hellhasnofury]

Excellent point..............

 

Hello Everybody:D

 

The information relating to the staffs conmments re-reconstruction of agreements is on post 45 posted up by Paul:D

 

The plot thickens:D We need to be looking as to how they think they can do this:rolleyes:

[2Grumpy]

The T&C's on my reconstructed agreement & the T&Cs in their leaflet differ - values, company name & address etc.

 

There's also no mention of updating my credit file or sharing data in either the reconstructed agreement or separate T&Cs either

 

So how naughty are they being?

[Guest dvdriley]

I cant find my Natwest loan agreement so I am now in the middle of reconstructing one.

 

See how they like it!!!

[underdog13]

:lol: What are your terms and conditions, dvdriley? I agree to pay when I feel like it, at an interest rate of 0%....

[WelcomeItAint!]

Or how about you pay nothing at all and just write it off yourself ?? Hey imagine that eh !!

[underdog13]

Lol, even better. And don't forget the refund of all interest paid to date;)

[Dipply75]

lol wonderful....mind and add your list of charges payable to you when THEY mess up, if you have to write etc

[2Grumpy]

Well, after getting a reconstructed CCA, NastyWest finally threatened (unspecified) "further action" if I didn't contact them about payment within 7 days of the date of the letter ...

Of course with their delays & the post, that didn't leave time for a reply to get to them in time. Oh well.

I did write saying ...

If you were going to telephone - don't

If you were going to send the boys round - forget it

If you are going to start court action - great - but as part of that you will have to provide me with all of the documents that you will be relying on as part of your case, so why not just send me a copy of the signed original agreement & we can avoid court action completely.

If you start court action anyway I will show this to the court as a genuine attempt to avoid wasting the court's time.

Forgot to say if you are going to throw your toys out of the pram, don't expect me to pick them up.